spider x spider article

[Galaxygirl]

there is a big chance that if the egg is from spider x spider that it might of just been deformed by random chance. one egg failing to develop with out all the information on the egg and the snake with in during development isn't conclusive as some have stated. but it has me really thinking about my spider girl and what i would do with her off spring. if i even mention the chance of a deformed or lethal combo to her she freaks out and wants out of breeding all together due to use losing our first child last year. the snakes are her babies or snabies as some have called them and she wants nothing but the best of health for them and their young so i am trying to find out all i can about each of our morphs and their potential offspring.

Though it would be nice if some of the big breeders who do breed spider with spider would necropsy any eggs that don't develop that seemed fertile at laying, and tell us what all they see happening. to the breeder's who do thank you as this information can stop some of us who are doing this as a hobby and are passionate about our snakes to the point of obsession from having heartache.

I've talked with some "big breeders" like Rob Starzman who have produced hundreds of clutches (possibly thousands of hatchlings) trying to figure out what's going on with Spider x Spider and his results were inconclusive. He didn't mention producing any dead white babies, an increased slug ratio, or eggs that went bad. Other breeders have been trying to explore Spider x Spider with no unusual results, as well.

[Mada]

thanks for every one's replys, i guess this is still up in the air.

[Jeanne]

I don't think there's a way to say it's the exact same gene in two species, considering no one has mapped the genome completely on either species as far as I have found.

I also don't think that he's proven that the dead hatchling was a super spider, because he cannot show a gene study that shows that hatchling had two copies of the spider gene.

I did have a male spider that threw nothing but spider babies, but that doesn't prove he was a super spider. It proved that I had good odds. There were some dead babies that didn't make it out of the egg, but that doesn't mean that they had two copies of the gene and so died because it was lethal, because he wasn't being bred to a female spider either.

I think he has a theory that could be true, but I know that there's a ton of breeders who have bred spiders together and did not report any abnormal numbers of dead eggs. COULD all those breeders be lying? Sure, but what is the profit in that? They would just not pair spiders in the future, so to get the highest number of viable eggs... which they don't do. Breeders still pair spiders(combos) without qualm. So I doubt that breeders "know" that spider/spider = lethal super spider.

Just applying logics, because I have no fancy degree.

I agree w Wolfy on this one completely.

[Jeanne]

I don't like the lack of evidence and the fact that he insists he is correct about the super spider being lethal, despite the lack of evidence. He acts as though his hypothesis is a fact, when in my opinion it is not verified.

Also agree w this statement.

[paulh]

I don't think there's a way to say it's the exact same gene in two species, considering no one has mapped the genome completely on either species as far as I have found.

I also don't think that he's proven that the dead hatchling was a super spider, because he cannot show a gene study that shows that hatchling had two copies of the spider gene.

I did have a male spider that threw nothing but spider babies, but that doesn't prove he was a super spider. It proved that I had good odds. There were some dead babies that didn't make it out of the egg, but that doesn't mean that they had two copies of the gene and so died because it was lethal, because he wasn't being bred to a female spider either.

I think he has a theory that could be true, but I know that there's a ton of breeders who have bred spiders together and did not report any abnormal numbers of dead eggs. COULD all those breeders be lying? Sure, but what is the profit in that? They would just not pair spiders in the future, so to get the highest number of viable eggs... which they don't do. Breeders still pair spiders(combos) without qualm. So I doubt that breeders "know" that spider/spider = lethal super spider.

Just applying logics, because I have no fancy degree.

I agree with the first two paragraphs in the quote.

As for the rest of the quote, has anyone done some statistics on collected data? For example, if a spider x normal mating produces three eggs and all the babies are spiders, it doesn't mean much. The odds of that happening by chance is 0.125 (one in eight). But if that mating produces 13 eggs and all the babies are spiders, the odds are different -- 0.0001 (one in 10000). With that kind of number, I would give serious consideration to the spider being a super spider.

I do not think that the breeders are lying. But they might not have sufficient information to give us the correct conclusion.

[OhhWatALoser]

I do not think that the breeders are lying. But they might not have sufficient information to give us the correct conclusion.

I more agree with this, At the very least that info hasn't hit public domain.

Given your vast genetic knowledge I wanted to ask a hypothetical question. Not to say it would be the case at all, but is there a plausible explanation that would account for a non lethal but also non existent homozygous spider given the public knowledge we have currently?

[Galaxygirl]

There's an active thread with some responses from breeders that have been breeding Spider x Spider here: http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...x-Spider/page2

If anyone wants to see some more discussion on this topic.

[Mada]

I more agree with this, At the very least that info hasn't hit public domain.

Given your vast genetic knowledge I wanted to ask a hypothetical question. Not to say it would be the case at all, but is there a plausible explanation that would account for a non lethal but also non existent homozygous spider given the public knowledge we have currently?

is it possible in genetics for the super form to cancel its self out and become heteral? where the two copies of the genes will only copy over once even where both are present? i mean ive never heard of such a thing but in a world where a skin condition could be only thrown in the boys or the girls of a clutch my mind is open to options. there are a lot of things to me as a noobie that seem strange as heck on these genes.

[aLittleLessButter]

is it possible in genetics for the super form to cancel its self out and become heteral? where the two copies of the genes will only copy over once even where both are present? i mean ive never heard of such a thing but in a world where a skin condition could be only thrown in the boys or the girls of a clutch my mind is open to options. there are a lot of things to me as a noobie that seem strange as heck on these genes.

That would be due to sex linking. In humans there is either XX or XY and some genetic issues are only carried by the Y chromosome meaning only men can carry it, ect. This isn't a case of sex linking but there is a possibility that there could be a defect during mitosis like the spider gene causing it to not split properly or later when the DNA copies for meiosis. It could also be during DNA crossover. I wish someone would take samples and replicate the process in a lab so we can know for sure Btw my clutch of lesser bee X killer bee has pipped

[Mada]

congrats on the clutch and if i win the lottery i plan on putting a good portion towards understanding the workings of our obsession.