Borrowed breeding?

[kriwu]

In aquatic breeding I've seen a lot of people "borrow" breeders from other (usually local) hobbyists to create a desired clutch, and I'm kind of surprised I haven't seen that in this community so far. I've seen people agree to split a clutch or even pay a fee for breeding their animals together, kind of like how people will use dogs/horses as studs or whatever.

Is this something that happens in the BP community? How would you feel about letting someone borrow/pay for your snakes breeding abilities (provided the other person you are working with is reliable/trustworthy/etc)?

[bcr229]

In the snake world it's called a "breeding loan". While it can work out if both parties involved understand that not everything goes smoothly and Mother Nature is a female dog, all too often when stuff happens one or the other party feels cheated on the transaction and friendships end.

You have to remember in the livestock and dog worlds there are industry standards and practices that have evolved over hundreds of years. The reptile pet trade is relatively young in comparison - only a few decades old - and practices are still evolving.

Add to that the logistics: someone with a nice male will want to put him to a lot of females during the season. So, like with horses, the female travels to the male. Unlike with horses, any reputable snake breeder will want to protect his collection by quarantining the female for at least 90 days, maybe longer, while a mare can show up with a negative Coggins and a health certificate and be put to the stud on her next heat cycle.

Once a female snake is gravid there's the problem of moving her back. Due to stress I wouldn't subject her to shipping, I would want to go get her, so I'm limited in the studs I can select to those within driving distance. Once she gets back I also have to quarantine her for 90 days to protect my snakes from anything she may have picked up from the stud owner's collection.

OTOH back to horses - a gravid mare can safely travel until she's just a few months from foaling, and most horses learn to not worry about being shipped.

The owner of the snake stud has to trust that I will incubate the clutch correctly, that I will not lie and say the female slugged out, or she laid six eggs when she really laid eight, or she just didn't go, etc. if the contract states the clutch is to be split 50-50. The stud owner can mitigate that risk by charging a flat fee so he gets paid even if there is no clutch, but then he will feel cheated if the female throws a spectacular clutch and he opted not to take a 50-50 split, and owners of females will feel cheated if they pay a flat stud fee and there is no resulting clutch, or if the odds gods aren't kind.

[erich_7719]

I am fairly new to breading BP's, but in my opinion as it would me nice to borrow, lets say a Sunset the time needed to quarantine and the entire breeding process it would probably be better to just buy the animal. Especially when you add in the trust factor. I believe it is easier for dogs or horses because the breeding time is predictable and doesn't take most of the year and in most cases you don't have to leave your animal in someone else's care.

[AjBalls]

I've been involved with two different methods of breeder loans so far.

The first:
I loaned a normal female to someone I've done business for a couple years by the time. I asked him if he could breed her to his Mojave, as they we're still upwards of $800+ at this time, which he agreed to. Some months later, with little contact, he told me she laid two eggs and that he would bring her to the next reptile show for me to pick up. A couple months pass by and he told me two normal males hatched out. The lack of communication on that one primarily left me with a sour taste in my mouth.

The second:
This is one I have done the past two years with someone I've been doing business with for close to 10 years now. The first year, I had my banana bumblebee sent to him to breed to a few of his females; I was deployed at the time and couldn't breed. This previous year, he asked to borrow my clown male to try to prove out some possible hets as he wasn't able to pick up a pastel clown like he wanted to. Since I see him at least once a month, he would give me updates every time on if anything ovulated or has laid. Or he would send me text updates. What we would do when it was time to split clutches, after every female lays and all the eggs have hatched, we'd place everything in a pile of males and females. The person who owns the higher valued snake gets first pick, then we go back and forth until there are no snakes left.

The second method I definitely prefer. I'm sure there are some people that do it clutch by clutch, but as one whole pile from the loan seems to even it out more for both parties.

Also these were both somewhat local deals. I have yet to send a snake multiple states away to try.

If I had to give advice to someone looking to try a breeder loan, I would suggest that they maintain good communication with the other breeder and to definitely ask for pictures along the way. Primarily of amount of eggs laid, eggs throughout the incubation period, so no one can say "lost an egg" to keep an additional animal; and the pipping/cutting portion. Along with all the babies out of the egg. And if you really want to get anal, videos of the hatchlings being sexed, if you are doing like a cross country loan.

[kriwu]

All of these responses are very helpful! I'm so used to having animals that produce hundreds of babies at a time that I was really wondering what methods were used in the snake business. Thanks so much for your replies!

[nightwolfsnow]

All of these responses are very helpful! I'm so used to having animals that produce hundreds of babies at a time that I was really wondering what methods were used in the snake business. Thanks so much for your replies!

I just had flashbacks to when I had guppies x.x.

[FranklinMorphs]

I did this once about 6 years ago, went perfectly fine actually. At the time, we had a big 2300gr Pastel female that had spectacular coloring and blushing, and wanted to see if we could knock out some bees/killerbees, so we set up a pairing with a male Bee from Predators in Mesa. They locked up, we got a 6 egg clutch and really crapped out on the odds. Got one male bee, two spiders and three normals. We did our best to divide out the clutch by value as best we could. We needed the male bee to move forward on trying to breed more bees. As best I can recall, the bee was about $600 at the time, the spiders were about $200 and the normals I think we put at $50 just to make the math easy, so Christian kept everything but the bee to sell in his store, and we took the bee and called it a day. The whole process went off without a hitch. The pastel stayed with him for about 2 months till she laid, then he incubated the clutch at his shop, so we were able to stop by any time to check it out. The bee was the first to pip so we got really excited, but the clutch really fell flat from there.

I would absolutely do it again in the future so long as it was with someone like Christian who I knew I could trust, and who made it easy with getting updates.

[darkranger69]

i also have good and bad experience about loans. firstly do it ih someone you trust in both ways.
First time send my banana male to a breeder in my city who has a banana bee that would not breed. he put my boy to 3 pieds and a big cinny. at the end of the season he give me back my male and told me none of his girl laid. nothing more to say.

the second is a friend from a 150km city away from me. he has a stunning citrus enchi male that we both wanted to pair to my 2 enchi girls and to my lemon pastel who refused to pair my fire dream bee. we decide first to share the value of the offspring 60%( for me) / 40% (for him) after saling any of it and to share 50%/50% the hold backs that we had define before hatching. the holdbacks would stay in my snake house and males would be bred to my and his girls without any shares and the girls future clutches will share 50%/50% Who ever the male used for the pairing. i documented locks, OVi and laying for those 3 girls. Even paired wih other males.

The day of the first 4 eggs clutch cutting, he came to cut with me we got 1.0 enchi, 0.1 super enchi citrus, 0.1 citrus enchi, 1.0 citrus pastel. we kept the super girl and sold the 3 others.

the second clutch pippers were coming out so i called him and i suggest to do the cutting without him but to record it live with my I phone. he accepted and i proceed:

We got 1.0 enchi bumblebee, 1.0 enchi OD fire, 0.1 citrus enchi, 1.0 enchi, 1.0 pastel, 0.1 normal. he was a triple split clutch : we decide together to share afer sale the money of the enchi, normal and citrus pastel. the pastel was clearly issue from my killerbee while the pastel enchi was clearly issue from his male citrus. the enchi and normal i decide to share with him as they were no way to say if they were from his male or my firedreambee.

the lemon clutch we proceed as he first one and we got stunning odds: 0.2 lemon enchi , 0.1 superpastel enchi, 1.0 citrus enchi ,1.0 enchi and 0.1 normal.
all the babies were clearly from his male so we kept the super and the best lemon girl. and sold the rest.

For those 3 co property girls we already agree on a plan: they will go to the best Enchi OD combo male that we will have in 3/4 years. the best would be an super enchi Fire OD.

To get a success in loans without a hitch , don t forget to discuss every aspect of the collaboration, make sure of the health of the snakes, and isolate the paired snakes if possible. i personnaly trust that guy but i had the breeding done at my house and the girls went back to my snake house after they 2 first post laying meals.

[Izzys Keeper]

I borrowed a banana male from a friend last year to breed to my cinny female. We went into the deal knowing that since I was the one housing and pairing the snakes, as well as incubating eggs, I would get first pick. He would get second, I would get third etc.

I kept him updated every step of the way with pics. It went smoothly.

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