IBD? Or Husbandry Error?

[ChaoticWonders]

Hi there (new to this thread),

Okay, so I know the title of this thread is one that everyone hates to see, but I'm kind of at a loss here. On August 24, I purchased my first ball python. She was a normal het-pied that I got for a decent price from a very knowledgeable breeder at an expo.

Before you pass any judgement, let me give you some context. I have been a snake-lover for quite some time, and am no newbie to keeping snakes. I currently have a corn snake who is happy and healthy (and just a wee-bit snappy, what do you expect from Petco snakes) and who I am working with as much as my time allows to get his temper to mellow out with proper handling and the reassurance that I am not going to forget to feed him or treat him like dirt. So, I know the basics of reptile keeping, to say the least. And, to ensure that I knew what I was doing with my ball python, I did 6+ years of research into the breed, the proper care for the breed, and of course what morphs I was most interested in and what diseases I should be on the lookout for.

The breeder was able to answer all of my questions (when she had last fed, properly sex her, tell me how to keep her so that I could tell if he knew what he was doing or not, etc.) She appeared in good health, had no lesions, mites, or obvious signs of ill health (no mucus around the mouth, clear eyes, active, etc.). The only thing she did not due was curl up into a ball, but he said she was generally very friendly in terms of his collection. So, I bought her and brought her home. I left her alone for a whole two weeks and kept her in a 34 gallon rubber maid tub with locking lids and a plethora of drilled holes on the lid to ensure proper ventilation for humidity and heating. I had heard that they generally do better in a tub since rack-systems are what breeders use and they tend to prefer security at that age. (She was only a few weeks old, so rather tiny.) I gave her a huge hide box with a little hole on the top, one of my old t-shirts to get used to my scent, and set her temperatures to have a 90 degree hotspot, 83-85 temp surrounding, and a cool side that never got below 75-77 degrees at the very worst. To be sure I had accurate readings, I did have thermometers on both sides (both digital, not the crap repticare dials) and a hygrometer. I tried a heating pad, but that turned out too hot, so before I brought her home I did a heating lamp, but instead of a light I just did the basic red bulb since they really only rely on belly heat than anything, and I made sure the thermometer was reading the floor's temperature to ensure it was not too hot for her.

She appeared healthy, did not appear overheated/too cold, as she used both sides of her tank regularly in the initial too weeks of stress and acclimation, and settled down beautifully to where she would get up for about an hour at midnight and only occasionally switch sides in the tank during the day. She remained friendly, showed no signs of discomfort, and was a joy to have around once she passed her two week acclimation period. She was quarantined from corn snake (in the same room, but as far apart as possible utilizing separate utensils for each and so forth.) I would have done two separate rooms but that wasn't available to me and many had reported success utilizing the methods I did in reference to utensils, handling on separate days, etc. I regularly checked for mites, health issues in either, etc. and both remained healthy.

Then, two weeks ago, she started doing the dreaded "head roll" and "stargazing". I did some research and tried not to panic, as I knew that there were plenty of things that could be causing it. I brought her out to try feeding her again (she had been raised on live and had since been rejecting frozen, but had not lost mass and stayed healthy until this moment). She did not take it, so I crossed out hunger as a possibility. I made sure that no aerosols were even in the room (haven't been in my room for quite some time) and that no candles had been lit anywhere near the room she was in. I gave her fresh water as I always did and even checked on my other snake to see if something was bothering him, but nothing was wrong with him. He greeted me with the same tail rattle and came out for his usual rounds for water, climbing, angry staring, etc. as usual. So, I planned to take her to the vet to see if something else was the cause. No signs of mites or respiratory infection were present either. (No mucus, wheezing, raised head for breath, etc.). She went and curled up under the newspaper bedding I used and that was the end of it. She was defecating normally and so forth, so I wasn't entirely worried. By the end of that same week, she was dead.

The only thing I can think of is that she had to have had IBD, right? I mean, I did everything that I was supposed to (or so I thought), and I didn't even get the chance to take her to a vet. She had just started showing signs and so forth. I emailed the breeder about it to let him know just in case it had spread through his collection or to see if any others had come down with it, but I'm at a loss. She was my first python and I had worked so hard to get her and to get what I needed for her and I still failed at it. Is it something I did wrong? I kind of want another one, as I really did love her to death, but I'm scared to move forward. Any input? Was it just that I purchased a sick snake? I know it can take a while for the disease to rear its ugly head, but I feel like I've done something wrong.

Thanks in advance, and sorry for the long rant, but I'm at a loss.

[guanagator]

Sorry for your loss, I have no personal experience with IBD but read it usually causes loss of motor function in the back half of the snake, any sign of this? Also since IBD is thought to be a retrovirus it will take time to manifest, if that's the culprit the chances of the snake being infected when you purchased would be very high and the breeders collection is likely infected.

[ChaoticWonders]

She did lose the ability to move, pretty much. I don't know if it was concentrated in the back half, as she was still able to move some, but she did lose most if not all of her motor function. It threw me for a loop, but that might explain why most of her movements were in the front near the end. That sucks if his collection is infected. So, that most likely means that this is not as a result of my own error?

[Stewart_Reptiles]

It's sad but animals do die and unless you kept the body in the fridge and took it to a vet shortly after for a necropsy (which I would have done since there was no real quarantine) there is really no way to know what happened.

Many people like to jump the gun at the slightest little symptom that may resemble IBD however IBD is rare, and drawing conclusions that one may have IBD in their collection without proof is not something that should be done here.

Did you treat for mites upon arrival?

Do you have a thermostat to regulate the temps?

Was you house sprayed for bugs?

[ChaoticWonders]

The only thing I didn't do was treat for mites, but I was ready if need be. She didn't show any signs and neither did my other snake, so I figured I was in the clear for that. I didn't treat the house for bugs for fear of the chemicals and I did have a thermostat to keep temps regulated at all times. I was so picky over that, too. I did check her for mites after she had died but there were none to be found. Believe me, I checked her over many times. She never slept in the water bowl, I thoroughly examined her scales every time I handled her, and none of those things ever showed.

[AllThatInThemGenes]

Let me start by saying that I’m sorry for your loss. It’s clear you have a passion for snakes and worked hard to provide everything she needed to thrive. I have never dealt with IBD and really can provide no insight as to what happened with this animal. There is nothing majorly wrong with your husbandry from what i can tell, i am a little confused because you mention using a heating pad but then indicate that it was too hot so you switched to using a lamp? There are small things you could improve on (having the appropriate size hide, etc) but those small things would not have been the cause of this animal passing. I think what most people will be interested in is the response (if any) that you got from the breeder. Again sorry for your loss Chaotic.

[BCS]

So first, snakes do not have a "breed". Ball python is a species, corn snake is a species... not a breed.

Second, not all petsmart snakes are snappy. I often go and check my local pet smart's reptiles and every one of them have been happy and healthy. Some snakes are just temperamental no matter where you get them.

Head rolling usually suggests something neurological. I could not tell you if it was IBD as I was not there. You could take the body to a vet and get them to determine the possibilities. She was super young so it could have been something she was born with which really would not surprise me. I also have no clue if it was something to do with husbandry. Again I am not there. I wouldn't let it discourage you from getting another Ball Python. If you can, try to get one a little older and that is a little more established with life and with eating.

[ChaoticWonders]

I switched from a pad to a lamp prior to buying her. I had her set-up ready to go two days in advance, as many recommended doing that to be temperatures were on par. And, yes, I was planning on getting her a different hide, but she really liked the one she had so she seemed fine for the time being. Thanks for the response. I really appreciate the help. I too, am waiting to see what the breeder says to see if he's had any more with similar issues.

[Freakie_frog]

How many meals did she have before she was sold to you

From what I've been to IBD kills quick in pythons, so unless the breeder had boa's too I'd rule out IBD. More than likely it was something she was born with.

What did you use to clean her tub with?

What kind of bedding did you use

[wolfy-hound]

I'm very sorry to hear of your loss. It really does sound like you've tried to do everything right.

It "could" have been IBD. I mean, it's possible but I wouldn't immediately suspect that, as mentioned, it's very rare.

Also, unfortunately when dealing with live animals, there is always the possibility that an animal just up and rolls over and dies. I've heard it from some of the very experienced breeders that an otherwise perfectly healthy and normal animal just goes downhill and dies.

Without a necropsy, it would be near impossible to know. Did you contact the seller? What did your vet say and do for the snake? Did the snake get any injections? MEds?