"In the wild"...

[Daigga]

This might come off as a rant, but I was wanting some opinions on this kind of thing as well. Mostly this seems to apply to lizard species, since snakes seem to (generally) be a lot more straightforward about feeding. My cousin, who recently stepped into the reptile keeping world with her very first bearded dragon, sent me a video yesterday of a bearded dragon eating a live adult mouse and asking me if that kind of thing was safe. Things like this agitate me to no end, since the owners of these animals like to defend their choices by saying things like "they do it in the wild all the time".

Lizards also get eaten by other animals in the wild, should I let my dog have at my dragon for that authentic natural feel?

It's the same whenever I hear of people defending giving crickets to iguanas. Yes, I am aware that wild specimens have been known to eat these foods. However, to my current knowledge there is no benefit to feeding insects to iguanas nor giving mammalian protein to beardies while there can be all sorts of risks to doing so. We've never even given our girl pinkies, even though they're supposedly not bad for them in moderation. "In moderation" has never sounded like safe practice to me...

The fact that the mouse was alive was just the cherry on top for me. The mouse got in a bite to the beardies face at the beginning of the video before it readjusted to grab it headfirst, and at no point was there any sign of the owner doing anything but recording. Ugh. Just... ugh. I don't have a problem with feeding live to my snakes, by the by, but that's because they won't eat anything else. Literally nothing, it's a live rodent or it's nothing. People don't even give captive monitor lizards live rodents, why are there so many videos of beardies eating live mice?

I know there was a post a while back about mimicking natural diets, but in the cases where the food item can actually be harmful, is that really something we as keepers should try to do? To me, this isn't like feeding a chick to a ball python. This isn't even giving another snake to a king for the purpose of a healthier diet, this is just getting some cheap entertainment at the possible expense of your animal to do so with a weak excuse of "because they do it in the wild means it's fine that they do it in my living room".


*To clarify, my cousin was pretty sure this along with letting your pet dragon eat spiders or other bugs in your home was bad practice and wouldn't have ever tried this even if I told her it was perfectly fine. There's a reason she has a beardie and not a python.

[Jabberwocky Dragons]

This might come off as a rant, but I was wanting some opinions on this kind of thing as well....

It's the same whenever I hear of people defending giving crickets to iguanas. Yes, I am aware that wild specimens have been known to eat these foods. However, to my current knowledge there is no benefit to feeding insects to iguanas nor giving mammalian protein to beardies while there can be all sorts of risks to doing so. We've never even given our girl pinkies, even though they're supposedly not bad for them in moderation. "In moderation" has never sounded like safe practice to me...

I know there was a post a while back about mimicking natural diets, but in the cases where the food item can actually be harmful, is that really something we as keepers should try to do? To me, this isn't like feeding a chick to a ball python. This isn't even giving another snake to a king for the purpose of a healthier diet, this is just getting some cheap entertainment at the possible expense of your animal to do so with a weak excuse of "because they do it in the wild means it's fine that they do it in my living room".

It's good of you to be concerned about the dragon's well-being but it sounds as if you’ve been greatly misinformed about mammalian proteins and dragons and the concept of moderation. The term moderation really means just as a supplemental food source. Some supplements are given more frequently than others and mammalian proteins are definitely down towards the bottom but that doesn't mean they are not necessary or unhealthy.

It's not that responsible keepers are trying to mimic the actual prey eaten in the wild but rather we are trying to approximate the nutrient composition. In the wild, bearded dragons occasionally eat rodents and small lizards. They need the calcium and other nutrients present that are not found in invertebrates. This is why we dust insects with calcium powder, to make up for this lack. "In moderation" doesn't mean that rodents are horrible for bearded dragons and you can only feed them a little because it's poison but rather that they only eat them occasionally and that's all that's needed for a well-rounded diet. Dragons love fruit but it wouldn't be good as their primary food source.

All dragons can benefit from an occasional rat pink. Breeding females greatly benefit from them for both the added fat reserves and the calcium for egg production. Does that mean you feed breeding females an all rodent diet? Absolutely not but occasional pinks or fuzzies are very beneficial. There are health risks from overfeeding rodents, such as fatty liver disease, but that never happens if you feed them appropriately as an occasional supplement. Waxworms contain a lot of fat and are great occasional treats. Superworms are good occasionally but I can't count the number of emails and messages I have gotten from owners who tried to give them as the primary food source and don't understand why their beardie keeps vomiting them up. Phoenix worms and hornworms are great as supplemental but not primary feeders. Small rodents are just another item in this supplement prey list.

Now, with all of this said, I don't agree with feeding live adult mice to dragons because bearded dragons cannot immobilize them quickly enough to prevent damage. I agree with that part of your post that this is an irresponsible practice. However, feeding f/t or live pinks and fuzzies as an occasional supplement is absolutely an appropriate food item.

[Jhill001]

Bearded Dragons and most other insect eating herps have an open door policy on what they will eat. If it moves and they can get it into their mouth then they will eat it.

I do not believe that a bearded dragon will actively hunt mammalian prey in the wild. The way their body type is I don't see them ever coming into contact with a pinkie mouse (or whatever rodent type is in Australia.) I could be wrong but even though it probably HAS happened I don't feel its very common. I have only read about their captive care and not much about their wild habits but this is just what I see from a Beardie as a predator type. If anything I'd see them getting at baby birds in nests more than anything.

The insects and plants that they would eat in the wild would provide them with the necessary nutrients that they need.

When I hear the excuse "In the wild" I would immediately point out what they have in their setup. Beardies will go into trees, I'd bet that the person barely had anything to climb on in the cage. In the wild they have live plants to crawl on. Does that person have plants in the cage? You could go on and on.

The one thing that is 100% true is that feeding a live adult mouse to a bearded dragon is stupid. It only puts the pet at risk and there is no gain other than satisfying morbid curiosity. They are not designed to quickly immobilize rodent prey.

We feed FT to snakes partly because of this risk factor and killing rodents is what a snake is designed to do.

[Jabberwocky Dragons]

I do not believe that a bearded dragon will actively hunt mammalian prey in the wild. The way their body type is I don't see them ever coming into contact with a pinkie mouse (or whatever rodent type is in Australia.) I could be wrong but even though it probably HAS happened I don't feel its very common. I have only read about their captive care and not much about their wild habits but this is just what I see from a Beardie as a predator type. If anything I'd see them getting at baby birds in nests more than anything.

The insects and plants that they would eat in the wild would provide them with the necessary nutrients that they need.

I don't want to see a misunderstanding of care so let me state that a plant and insect only diet without calcium supplementation for bearded dragons, whether through vertebrate or calcium powder sources, results in conditions like metabolic bone disease. Do a quick search on bearded dragon diets in the wild, especially from Australian museums and zoos, and you'll see most believe occasional rodent and small lizards make up a small part of bearded dragon's diets in the wild. There's some good books that go more in depth. They are quite capable of catching smaller lizards or coming upon a rodent nest. Calcium is present in comparatively very small amounts in most invertebrates and ,in captivity, I would not recommend using the specialty "calcium rich" invertebrates like phoenix worms as the primary food source.

It is possible to raise healthy bearded dragons without any vertebrate supplementation in captivity using calcium powder. However, it is also beneficial, though not necessary if using calcium powder, to occasionally supplement with small rodents.

[Jhill001]

I don't want to see a misunderstanding of care so let me state that a plant and insect only diet without calcium supplementation for bearded dragons, whether through vertebrate or calcium powder sources, results in conditions like metabolic bone disease. Do a quick search on bearded dragon diets in the wild, especially from Australian museums and zoos, and you'll see most believe occasional rodent and small lizards make up a small part of bearded dragon's diets in the wild. There's some good books that go more in depth. They are quite capable of catching smaller lizards or coming upon a rodent nest. Calcium is present in comparatively very small amounts in most invertebrates and ,in captivity, I would not recommend using the specialty "calcium rich" invertebrates like phoenix worms as the primary food source.

It is possible to raise healthy bearded dragons without any vertebrate supplementation in captivity using calcium powder. However, it is also beneficial, though not necessary if using calcium powder, to occasionally supplement with small rodents.

I see them hunting down other lizards and now that you mention it, I remember reading that they are big time lizard eaters, much more than eating rodents. I just don't see a beardie being able to squeeze into a burrow like a snake would to get pinkie mice.

I didn't mean that people shouldn't supplement their lizard diets with calcium, I just mean that in the wild those insects are just naturally more nutritious because of their wild diets which is why a wild beardie doesn't need someone running around dusting all the insects it eats with calcium.