Cinnamon Yellowbelly Paint

[Slowcountry Balls]

I acquired what was labeled as a male Cinnamon Yellowbelly Paint and 2 female Paints. I bred them this past season and had 11 eggs, but no Super Paints (I think I may have just had some bad luck). Jon from Cold Blooded Addiction (http://www.coldbloodedaddiction.com/) and a couple of other breeders were kind enough to give me their opinions on what I hatched out. I think I had 1 male Cinnamon Yellowbelly Paint, 1 male Cinnamon, 1 female Cinnamon, 1 male Yellowbelly Paint, 1 female Yellowbelly Paint, and 2 female Paints in the first clutch, and 2 male Cinnamon Paints, 1 male Paint, and 1 male normal in the second clutch. I have posted a bunch of pictures and hope that some people here may be able to verify what I labeled them as.

Here is the sire male Cinnamon Yellowbelly Paint:



Here is a picture of the sire male Cinnamon Yellowbelly Paint with what I believe is the male Cinnamon Yellowbelly Paint hatchling:


Here is a picture of all the hatchlings that had Cinnamon in them (they are labeled with what I think they are):


And here are 2 pictures with a Cinnamon, a Cinnamon Paint, and a Cinnamon Paint Yellowbelly (all labeled):



And now for individual pictures of the hatchlings:
Male Cinnamon Yellowbelly Paint



Male Cinnamon



Female Cinnamon



Male Cinnamon Paint 1





Male Cinnamon Paint 2





Male Yellowbelly Paint



Female Yellowbelly Paint




Female Paint 1




Female Paint 2




Male Paint


Male Normal


Any help on identifying these would be great.

[ClarkT]

I've hatched some paint yellowbelly babies from a paint yellowbelly x chocolate pairing.

I'm still not sure--even after 7 months -- that I've identified them correctly. I think I have paint YB chocolates, Paint YBs, and a paint or two... It has proven difficult to determine whether the paint gene is present on each yellowbelly, as yellowbellies can have such a variation in their looks. And some of what the paint does to yellowbellies is found in regular yellowbellies...

That being said, calling out a paint cinnamon yellowbelly seems almost impossible. Looking at Cinna Bellies online, there are a lot of similarities in what you're labeling as cinnamon YB paints, and cinna bellies. Tough call. For mine, I've almost just determined that they'll have to be bred out to determine anything. Through breeding them, maybe I'll gain the necessary experience to see what it is I need to look for.

For your "paint" breeder females, I wonder if they're really paints for not having one super in 11 eggs. Not that it's unheard of at all... We had multiple clutches from a pastel mojave pinstripe (jigsaw blast). He NEVER threw the pinstripe gene. I don't remember how many clutches, but it was around 5 or 6 clutches, and never had one single pinstripe. Jigsaws are quite obvious, so it was quite obvious he carried the pin gene...

I thought I had learned somewhat, too, that the paint gene brightens/lightens the look of some morphs, and/or that they brighten the look of a normal.

As for your clutch, I kind of think your lighter/brighter cinnamons might be the cinny paints, not the darker ones. Seriously, just a tough call. Wish I could be of more help on it. Congrats on great clutches, and good job on taking good pics of them all.

[TheSnakeEye]

Chris I am going to be honest in that identifying these snakes as Paint or not is very difficult for me. Paint is so subtle in many combos and mixing YB in there is almost impossible to differentiate, at least for me. If I had to guess I would say you're labeling seems pretty accurate based on the traits of a paint with the exception of the single gene male Paint and the male normal. I am actually seeing the opposite but it could just be the pictures. I got out of Paints and would get back into it if I were to get a Super male to avoid the whole "poss" part of it. I'd like to see pics of the mother's if possible.

[Slowcountry Balls]

Chris I am going to be honest in that identifying these snakes as Paint or not is very difficult for me. Paint is so subtle in many combos and mixing YB in there is almost impossible to differentiate, at least for me. If I had to guess I would say you're labeling seems pretty accurate based on the traits of a paint with the exception of the single gene male Paint and the male normal. I am actually seeing the opposite but it could just be the pictures. I got out of Paints and would get back into it if I were to get a Super male to avoid the whole "poss" part of it. I'd like to see pics of the mother's if possible.

Thanks. I'll try to get some pictures of the mothers posted.

[Slowcountry Balls]

Here are pictures of the mothers. The first is a 2009 female "Paint", the second is a 2011 "Paint".

2009 female "Paint"




2011 female "Paint"




I am on the fence about them as I do see some smearing or blurring of the alien heads behind the neck and some reduced/granite patterning, but I'm really not sure.

[Slowcountry Balls]

I repeated the pairings last year, and the first Paint clutch to hatch in 2015 was 2015 Clutch 5. I think this clutch has really helped to shine some more light on which snakes have Paint and which do not when the Cinnamon and Yellowbelly genes are combined. Here are the results of 2015 Clutch 5. Limey Smidger of Royal Reptilia (https://www.facebook.com/RoyalReptilia) and Jon Courtney (http://www.coldbloodedaddiction.com/ and screen name coldbloodaddict on these forums) have been a huge help with looking at my clutches involving the Paint gene. Originally the Paint gene was imported by Charles Glaspie. Charles Glaspie classified it as an incomplete dominate gene. Ben Siegel of Ben Siegel Reptiles Inc (https://www.facebook.com/reptileshop2) found his own gene that looked to be similar, the Sentinel gene. After these two genes had been brought to the USA, Jon Courtney found the Nazca gene in his Enchi project. These three genes were all initially classified as incomplete dominate. Ben Siegel later decided to switch the classification of the Sentinel gene from incomplete dominate to recessive, while Charles Glaspie and Jon Courtney have kept the classification of the Paint and Nazca gene as incomplete dominate.

As you can see on Limey's timeline, on July 22, Limey posted pictures showing that he had proved the Paint and Sentinel genes to be compatible. Because of the compatibility, Limey has decided that he is going to classify the Paint gene as recessive and not incomplete dominate. At the same time, as you can see by the pictures Limey posted on his timeline on September 9, the heterozygous Paint Super Stripe looks very different from the Super Stripe. This furthers the discussion as to whether or not the Paint and Sentinel genes are truly recessive, or are they an extremely subtle incomplete dominate gene. Some combinations seem to cause the Paint gene to be much more visible in the heterozygous form. I sent an email to Jon about Limey proving the Paint gene compatible with the Sentinel gene, but I have not heard anything back from him. Maybe Jon will weigh in on this topic in the near future.

The sire was a Cinnamon Yellowbelly Paint and the damupposed to be a female Paint, but I mixed her up with my female het Albino het Caramel Albino (for the entire season). Here are some pictures of the Cinnamon Yellowbelly Paint sire with what I think are a female Cinnamon Yellowbelly and a Cinnamon Yellowbelly Paint. The Paint gene really seems to have made itself visible by intensifying the Yellowbelly side-belly pattern and by distorting the alien heads of the last third of the body.
The Cinnamon Yellowbelly Paint sire is in the middle with the Cinnamon Yellowbelly Paint on the left and the Cinnamon Yellowbelly on the right.

Again, the Cinnamon Yellowbelly Paint sire is in the middle with the Cinnamon Yellowbelly Paint on the left and the Cinnamon Yellowbelly on the right, really trying to show the last third of the body of each snake in this picture.


Here are two pictures of the Cinnamon Yellowbelly Paint, the Cinnamon Yellowbelly, and Cinnamon from 2015 Clutch 5. In the first picture, the Cinnamon Yellowbelly Paint is in the lower left, with the Cinnamon Yellowbelly in the lower right and the Cinnamon in the top middle.

In the second picture, the Cinnamon Yellowbelly Paint is in the upper left, with the Cinnamon Yellowbelly in the upper right and the Cinnamon in the bottom middle.


Here are two pictures of the Cinnamon Yellowbelly Paint next to the Cinnamon Yellowbelly. In both pictures the Cinnamon Yellowbelly Paint is on the left and the Cinnamon Yellowbelly is on the right.



Here is another one of the Cinnamon Yellowbelly Paint (on top) and the Cinnamon Yellowbelly (on bottom) showing how the Paint gene distorts the alien heads on the last third of the body of the Cinnamon Yellowbelly Paint compared to the Cinnamon Yellowbelly.


Here is a picture of the female Cinnamon from 2015 Clutch 11. She found a new home at Savannah Reptiday on September 6.


Here is the female Cinnamon Yellowbelly from 2015 Clutch 11.



Here is the female Cinnamon Yellowbelly Paint from 2015 Clutch 11.



Here is the female Yellowbelly possible Paint. I really can't decide on this one. Any help from experienced eyes would be appreciated.



And here is a picture of the three that might be Paints or normals, or some of each. Again, any help from experienced eyes would be appreciated.


Hope this can help increase some interest in Paint projects!

[Slowcountry Balls]

Here are the results of another Paint Clutch. 2015 Clutch 11 was supposed to have Paint in both parents. It was our male Cinnamon Yellowbelly Paint to a Pastel Paint possible Chocolate. There were five eggs, but six babies. Unfortunately, one egg had a severely deformed Pastel hatchling in it. It was so kinked that it could not slither, so we had to euthinize it. The remaining five babies are pretty cool looking and we have guesses as to their genetics, but since Paint is involved, we would love any help that you guys can give.

First up is a male that is either a Paint or a normal.


Next up is one that we think male is a Cinnamon Yellowbelly Paint, shows the distorted alien heads on the last third and the side to belly markings that we saw in 2015 Clutch 5.


We think this one is a Pewter Paint. The first half of him looks a normal Pewter, but the back half shows a lot of the same distortions as the Cinnamon Yellowbelly Paint from 2015 clutch 5.


The next two are the twins, they were the tiniest babies we have hatched to date, 21 grams and 25 grams. My wife has started calling the smaller one Nano Gal. We are pretty sure that both are girls, but will double check the sex when they are a little bigger (was concerned about hurting them).

The first up is Nano Gal. We are thinking she might be a Cinnamon Yellowbelly Paint who didn't finish developing her colors because she is so small. She has the dark color of the Cinnamon gene, the back half shows the distortion of the Paint gene, and side to belly shows what looks like the Yellowbelly gene. She looks different from the other Cinnamon Yellowbelly Paints from this clutch and 2015 Clutch 5, but is that because she is so small?


Last up is the one that we think is a Pewter Yellowbelly Paint. Her side to belly pattern looks to be more intensified than the pictures I could find of a Pewter Yellowbelly, which is what we noticed going from the Cinnamon Yellowbelly to the Cinnamon Yellowbelly Paint in 2015 Clutch 5.


Let us know what you think, and thanks for checking out our thread.

[ClarkT]

Tough call. Beautiful hatchlings.


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[Slowcountry Balls]

Tough call. Beautiful hatchlings.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks. It seems that it is always that way with the Paint gene in its heterozygus form. I can see why Limey is going to call it a recessive gene. I have an "educated" guess on which ones are the single gene Paints (heterozygus), but it seems that some combinations really help the Paint gene (in the heterozygus form) stand out. I think Cinnamon and Yellowbelly help, but certainly by Limey's picture of what he is calling the Super Stripe het Paint (used to be called a Super Stripe Paint), the heterozygus form of the Paint gene becomes visible in the right combination.