Quality of life

[MidSouthMorphs]

With Ball Pythons, if they are eating and shedding routinely then they aren't "stressed." Ball Pythons spend 90% of their lives in Rodent burrows usually only coming out to eat, drink, or bask. I think whether we all keep them in tubs or large habitats, as long as they are doing the things they should then they have a good quality of life. Love all the pictures above, and set ups with the chair. Very neat idea.

[Snake Judy]

With Ball Pythons, if they are eating and shedding routinely then they aren't "stressed." Ball Pythons spend 90% of their lives in Rodent burrows usually only coming out to eat, drink, or bask. I think whether we all keep them in tubs or large habitats, as long as they are doing the things they should then they have a good quality of life. Love all the pictures above, and set ups with the chair. Very neat idea.

Ball pythons are certainly more sedentary than a lot of other species, but most will be active and leave their dens for a few hours around dusk and dawn. Except for the first night or two after feeding, or during a shed cycle, mine is out doing snake stuff in her enclosure almost every night. I get the impression that activity patterns in wild ball pythons are similar, based on a few field reports I've come across.

Breeders don't really have the option to consider anything beyond the basic biological needs of the animals, in most cases. And that's okay for ball pythons, who adapt very well to rack systems, but if a keeper is able to house them in a way allows them to express a wider range of natural behaviors and offers them some sensory stimulation I think that's great. Eating and shedding is sort of the "low bar" IMO.

I do agree with what JoshSloane said, though. There are a few practical limitations to consider when designing an enclosure, and it's important to make sure basic husbandry is addressed before getting into anything fancy.

[MidSouthMorphs]

Ball pythons are certainly more sedentary than a lot of other species, but most will be active and leave their dens for a few hours around dusk and dawn. Except for the first night or two after feeding, or during a shed cycle, mine is out doing snake stuff in her enclosure almost every night. I get the impression that activity patterns in wild ball pythons are similar, based on a few field reports I've come across.

Breeders don't really have the option to consider anything beyond the basic biological needs of the animals, in most cases. And that's okay for ball pythons, who adapt very well to rack systems, but if a keeper is able to house them in a way allows them to express a wider range of natural behaviors and offers them some sensory stimulation I think that's great. Eating and shedding is sort of the "low bar" IMO.

Bad sheds and refusing food are sure signs of stress. It has been documented that Ball Pythons spend the majority of there lives in dark and compact burrows. I've read field reports as well. Rack systems were mainly considered do to how Ball Pythons lived their lives, they are more comfortable in smaller environments as a whole. Just because a snake is out exploring could mean many things, perhaps looking for a more secure place to hide. Since they are mainly active at night. Racks and large environments do both work quite well, with larger ones more hides are needed for comfort.

I'll disagree with you there. I guarantee breeders have tried larger environments and systems, and they chose rack systems because of how well Ball Pythons thrived in them. I would like to hear the opinions from Brian at BHB on this, I'll email him your post.


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[jclaiborne]

Bad sheds and refusing food are sure signs of stress. It has been documented that Ball Pythons spend the majority of there lives in dark and compact burrows. I've read field reports as well. Rack systems were mainly considered do to how Ball Pythons lived their lives, they are more comfortable in smaller environments as a whole. Just because a snake is out exploring could mean many things, perhaps looking for a more secure place to hide. Since they are mainly active at night. Racks and large environments do both work quite well, with larger ones more hides are needed for comfort.

I'll disagree with you there. I guarantee breeders have tried larger environments and systems, and they chose rack systems because of how well Ball Pythons thrived in them. I would like to hear the opinions from Brian at BHB on this, I'll email him your post.


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Most breeders use rack systems for all of the species they breed not just BPs. It seems to me that rack systems came about as an economical/efficient way to house multiple snakes in a relatively small area, that they don't plan on keeping for the entire life span of the animal (selling the offspring), not because it was perfect for a Ball Python. The argument that BPs spend most of their lives in burrows is always brought up, but BPs have been found climbing trees and exploring as well. What about other reptiles that we know for a fact utilize larger spaces. I am one of those that looks at a rack system and cringe, that is my personal opinion, and I am not bashing anyone that uses them, to each their own. Big breeders seem to keep everything from BPs, corns, carpets, Bearded Dragons, Skinks, the list goes on in rack systems with paper towel substrate or aspen and a plastic water bowl. The animals live yes, do they thrive, long term, eh that will always be debated. It is hard to determine quality of life in a snake, but if you look at some of the more intelligent lizard species you can definitely tell the difference in how they act when they aren't provided with proper caging requirements.

[MidSouthMorphs]

Most breeders use rack systems for all of the species they breed not just BPs. It seems to me that rack systems came about as an economical/efficient way to house multiple snakes in a relatively small area, that they don't plan on keeping for the entire life span of the animal (selling the offspring), not because it was perfect for a Ball Python. The argument that BPs spend most of their lives in burrows is always brought up, but BPs have been found climbing trees and exploring as well. What about other reptiles that we know for a fact utilize larger spaces. I am one of those that looks at a rack system and cringe, that is my personal opinion, and I am not bashing anyone that uses them, to each their own. Big breeders seem to keep everything from BPs, corns, carpets, Bearded Dragons, Skinks, the list goes on in rack systems with paper towel substrate or aspen and a plastic water bowl. The animals live yes, do they thrive, long term, eh that will always be debated. It is hard to determine quality of life in a snake, but if you look at some of the more intelligent lizard species you can definitely tell the difference in how they act when they aren't provided with proper caging requirements.

I am well aware that breeders keep all species in rack systems. I have seen many Ball Pythons thrive in rack systems which is what I am only talking about here. To suggest otherwise is preposterous. Personally I own one that is approaching 17 years old. And it isn't really debated, rack systems are very well accepted by most breeders and hobbyists. Garrick Demeyer as well as BHB and many others have some fairly old Ball Pythons also that have been in rack systems their whole lives.

My opinion is this, rack systems or vivariums and vision cages are all great. I don't feel that one is better than the other. It's all personal preference and racks are mine.


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[jclaiborne]

I am well aware that breeders keep all species in rack systems. I have seen many Ball Pythons thrive in rack systems which is what I am only talking about here. To suggest otherwise is preposterous. Personally I own one that is approaching 17 years old. And it isn't really debated, rack systems are very well accepted by most breeders and hobbyists. Garrick Demeyer as well as BHB and many others have some fairly old Ball Pythons also that have been in rack systems their whole lives.

My opinion is this, rack systems or vivariums and vision cages are all great. I don't feel that one is better than the other. It's all personal preference and racks are mine.


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You are right it does come down to personal preference, and what I gave you was my opinion, however it seems like you are comparing the age of an animal to quality of life because of how long it has lived. I am well aware that snakes aren't capable of higher thinking etc. However, this is how I look at it (again my opinion). Will a snake, rat, cat, dog, or even human survive in a cage that is only big enough to turn around in if they are provided with food, water, and cleaning when a mess is made? Yes their basic needs are met, so they will live and age, but being that the title of this thread is "Quality of Life" I have to ask the same question I always do, and always get scoffed at for. Would you say any other animal than a snake being kept in a small dark box has a good "quality of life"?

[Snake Judy]

Bad sheds and refusing food are sure signs of stress. It has been documented that Ball Pythons spend the majority of there lives in dark and compact burrows. I've read field reports as well. Rack systems were mainly considered do to how Ball Pythons lived their lives, they are more comfortable in smaller environments as a whole. Just because a snake is out exploring could mean many things, perhaps looking for a more secure place to hide. Since they are mainly active at night. Racks and large environments do both work quite well, with larger ones more hides are needed for comfort.

I'll disagree with you there. I guarantee breeders have tried larger environments and systems, and they chose rack systems because of how well Ball Pythons thrived in them. I would like to hear the opinions from Brian at BHB on this, I'll email him your post.


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Bad sheds are more a sign of inadequate husbandry, or in some cases a hormonal imbalance. Refusing food can be a sign of stress, especially in young/new snakes, but food strikes are common for ball pythons housed under a variety of conditions for a variety of reasons.

Again, I think ball pythons can do pretty well in rack systems, and they make achieving proper conditions easy for the keeper, along with cleaning and general maintenance. But I don't think they are necessarily the superior choice for your average keeper now that larger PVC enclosures and the like are so readily available.

[Snake Judy]

You are right it does come down to personal preference, and what I gave you was my opinion, however it seems like you are comparing the age of an animal to quality of life because of how long it has lived. I am well aware that snakes aren't capable of higher thinking etc. However, this is how I look at it (again my opinion). Will a snake, rat, cat, dog, or even human survive in a cage that is only big enough to turn around in if they are provided with food, water, and cleaning when a mess is made? Yes their basic needs are met, so they will live and age, but being that the title of this thread is "Quality of Life" I have to ask the same question I always do, and always get scoffed at for. Would you say any other animal than a snake being kept in a small dark box has a good "quality of life"?

For me it's about addressing the psychological needs along with the physical. They may not be capable of complex thought, but they're still highly-evolved animals that are designed to survive in a very complex environment. They're equipped with some pretty incredible senses and instinctual behaviors that are constantly at work. There's still a lot going on with that ball python that's curled up snugly in a hide, even if you can't see it. Minimalist rack systems provide for the physical needs of the animal just fine, but they're almost completely cut off from the sensory aspects of their being. So yeah, the animal will eat and grow and live, but that's it. That's what I meant by setting a low bar.

[MidSouthMorphs]

You are right it does come down to personal preference, and what I gave you was my opinion, however it seems like you are comparing the age of an animal to quality of life because of how long it has lived. I am well aware that snakes aren't capable of higher thinking etc. However, this is how I look at it (again my opinion). Will a snake, rat, cat, dog, or even human survive in a cage that is only big enough to turn around in if they are provided with food, water, and cleaning when a mess is made? Yes their basic needs are met, so they will live and age, but being that the title of this thread is "Quality of Life" I have to ask the same question I always do, and always get scoffed at for. Would you say any other animal than a snake being kept in a small dark box has a good "quality of life"?

I respect your opinions, but comparing Ball Pythons to Dogs and Cats is like comparing Apples to Green Beans, it is hard to compare social mammals to reptiles who prefer to be alone in the wild (besides Breeding season). I see what you are saying though. In my last post, I was only saying that Ball Pythons can live long and healthy lives in a rack system. SnakeJudy, I agree with you, I also do not think their is any superior way to keep a Ball Python. I admire the realistic setups some people make, a lot of work and effort goes into that and some are just down right amazing.