"Rookie Snake Guy" question

[phogg]

My 9 yr old son just used his birthday money to buy a Ball Python! I have always been fascinated by snakes and thought they were really cool to watch but I never really considered owning one until my animal loving, biologist-in-training son decided his next purchase would be a baby male Banana Ball Python. Once we started shopping around and researching these snakes we both became completely enamored with all of the different morphs and the thought of diving into the world of snake ownership on a more serious level than just one animal as a pet. That brings me to my actual question. How difficult would it be to breed these animals as a hobby? How do you get started? There's obviously a lot to learn but we wouldn't rely on it to put food on the table. At the same time, if we're going to do it, I would want to produce quality animals that someone would actually want to purchase so that we don't end up broke with hundreds of snakes in our garage! If it worked out in the longer term, my son would LOVE to be able to earn a little money doing something like this throughout high school rather than making $8/hr pushing shopping carts in the grocery store parking lot! I've already learned a lot from reading what you guys have written in this forum. I'm hoping you can share some additional wisdom that applies directly to my current situation. Thanks in advance!

[frostysBP]

To be 100% honest The breeding part is not to difficult when you have the right setups... you need a few racks adult medium hatchling rack and a incubator...thermostats.. steady supply of food live and frozen....... all the cleaning supplies and time to care for all the snakes and rats if you breed those yourself... if you are going to do it in your garage and it doesn't have ac and heat then you will have to build a room and control the temp steady.... buy all the females grow them up a year at least buy males breed hope everything work in your favor....get the hatchling to eat good easier said than done sometimes....take quality photos.....try than sell them....if your shipping to people its harder without reputation....... and not to mention fight with a flooded market...... after you spend a few thousand dollars to get fully setup your looking at probably 4-5 years to break even.. my suggestion would be to buy two or three female at most raise them for a year and but one male and give it shot with a small number of snakes and go from there. I have seen so many people go ball crazy and spend 8,000 on collections and turn and selll them 2 year later for 3,000 because it to much work and its not the get rich quick scheme they thought it was..... take it slow... I have owned snaked for the last 15 years and just had my first clutch this year....I still own my first snake still remember they are 20-30 year commitment....are you going to care for them when he is at college and cant have them.... last note when I say buy females and wait a year then buy a male it so buy the time the male is up to size the female will be close the next year..

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[Penultimate]

Have a look at this page, here. It outlines the steps in the breeding process. I haven't started breeding yet, so I personally can't say whether breeding is very difficult or not, but I've found this page to be very informative.

http://ballpython.ca/gallery/breeding/

This page tells you about the various defects linked to ball python morphs. Very important to know before deciding to breed in my opinion. Some people avoid the morphs with defects, others do not. It really comes down to personal preference.

http://www.owalreptiles.com/issues.php

This goes into the different ball python morph complexes. That means that when you breed two morphs from the same complex together, you may get something more dramatic than expected. For example, lesser x mojave is an all white snake. If you bred that lesser mojave to a normal, you would get all lessers and mojaves. Definitely worth a read.

http://www.owalreptiles.com/complexes.php

If you haven't had a look at this website yet, you'll have a lot of fun here. Play around with the genetics wizard to better understand what your potential pairings could make.

http://www.worldofballpythons.com/

As I mentioned earlier, I haven't started breeding yet. However, I plan to start sometime next year. When building my collection, I bought snakes that I liked. I think it's important to choose the best looking animals that you can afford. I mean, if your collection doesn't suit your tastes, why have the animals? You're not guaranteed to sell everything, so if you don't like what you produce, you might end up keeping snakes you don't like.

My collection has become a pretty decent size, and I've noticed something about that... it's important to have a really good live rodent supply. At first it was enough to just go to the pet store for live mice, but it quickly got to be too inconvenient. I have three snakes that only eat live food. If you're breeding snakes, you should probably be breeding rats as well.

It's also a really good idea to know a reptile vet nearby. If you end up with a snake with an RI or an egg bound female, this one is important. Always quarantine new arrivals far away from your established collection.

If you want a shot at making money, and that seems pretty difficult to do with any kind of animal, consider getting a recessive gene female. It'll take longer to see results, but the offspring will be worth more. For example, you could grow up a piebald female and breed her to a male banana to make banana het pieds. Then you could take a banana het pied male and breed it back to the mother to try for some visuals. If you don't want to do the recessive thing, at least buy females with more than one gene. A bumblebee costs the same amount to feed as a pastel, and it would be much better for breeding. Spend the money on quality females. If that means you can only buy one snake instead of five, it just means you have four less mouths to feed. I really wouldn't expect to make money on ball pythons, so it might be better to see any money made as an added bonus.

If you really want to give breeding a try, be sure your setup is completely ideal and you're committed. I personally think breeding any animal is a wonderful experience. I remember my dad keeping and breeding birds and small animals when I was younger. Doves were the most prolific. Lovebirds were a bit louder and didn't produce much, but they were my favorites. We had a few litters of guinea pigs and I kept two as pets. The others were given to friends. Good memories. It's an amazing experience for any kid to be allowed to be involved in the keeping and breeding of animals. It teaches responsibility, respect for animals and, eventually, loss. Breeding anything will inevitably lead to losing an animal. It might be a guinea pig born with a spine deformity, or it might be a bird who gets in a freak accident and breaks a leg. I breed rabbits for showing purposes today. If you believe you're prepared to breed any kind of animal, I say go for it. There will be bumps along the road, you're very likely to end up losing a life you may have helped create and you may lose money, but in the end, I still think it's worth it.

[phogg]

Thanks for both of those responses! It sounds like there could be a fine line between this being a really cool thing to do along side my son and being giant, expensive failure...lol! Ace, my son, loves anything to do with animals, science etc. I really think he would learn a tremendous amount doing something like this because he'll be way into all the details. The harder part for me to grasp is the financial side. I've been an entrepreneur my whole life so I always try to think about how the dollars will be made & lost. The biggest question in my mind is how to sell the animals. What are the best outlets for small, unknown like we would be? Given that we aren't trying to make a living off snakes, is there a market to "wholesale" animals to someone who DOES have an established reputation? On the flip side of the same line of thought, where is the best place to buy new snakes? We bought our first one from Chun Ku at Dynasty Reptiles and had a good experience. Would we be better served to wait for reptile shows & buy there? Thanks again for engaging in this conversation that, I realize, is probably pretty boring for those who have been around a while!

[phogg]

...also, I read somewhere that white snakes sell like crazy. Is that true? I might be content to breed for BELs over & over again if they're really popular. I also liked Penultimate's idea of spending some time working on pieds and making that our "niche". Seems like a smaller operation with a narrow focus on higher demand morphs stands the best chance of being profitable.

[frostysBP]

Recessive hold value alot better...they dont sell that quick I can tell you that....alot of it depends on ur Location...I am not trying to scare you out of breeding for you and your son I think its great....I hope when I have kids they can carry on my passion. Im just saying start small and get a clutch or two before taking it further so if it you decide you dont want to do it your not in it that big...... I am holding back just about every female I produced this year and I will do the same for the next few years to build a big breeding stock of female.takeing care of o e snake is easy im at 31 and spend about 1+ a day cleaning and general care of the snakes....much less the rats....... and now with 10 babies to feed every 5 days on top of the big snakes that piss a quart of water a day it seams it get a little old.... 75%of my time is picking up crap I think.....but a bad day cleaning snake crap is better than a good day at work. Good luck on ur journey....and feel free to ask any ? U have.

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[distaff]

If he were my son, I would focus simply on good husbandry to begin with. He is nine. His love may be snakes this year, but tropical fish next year.

Also, as a breeder you are dealing with lives. Ethically, the lives come before the money - that holds if you are raising meat chickens for the customer's freezer, or English Mastiffs as pets.

This is not to say that I wouldn't choose a morph with potential; a good morph will keep your son interested and forward thinking with a goal...just that the money side isn't everything.

[Hypancistrus]

Thanks for both of those responses! It sounds like there could be a fine line between this being a really cool thing to do along side my son and being giant, expensive failure...lol! Ace, my son, loves anything to do with animals, science etc. I really think he would learn a tremendous amount doing something like this because he'll be way into all the details. The harder part for me to grasp is the financial side. I've been an entrepreneur my whole life so I always try to think about how the dollars will be made & lost. The biggest question in my mind is how to sell the animals. What are the best outlets for small, unknown like we would be? Given that we aren't trying to make a living off snakes, is there a market to "wholesale" animals to someone who DOES have an established reputation? On the flip side of the same line of thought, where is the best place to buy new snakes? We bought our first one from Chun Ku at Dynasty Reptiles and had a good experience. Would we be better served to wait for reptile shows & buy there? Thanks again for engaging in this conversation that, I realize, is probably pretty boring for those who have been around a while!

The best advice I can give you is don't ever breed as a consideration of $$$. Gained OR lost. Breed for the love of the animal, and that way you will never be disappointed.

Please also be sure you have a plan to be able to house babies you cannot sell right away. Normal ball python babies are a dime a dozen in most areas and it can be hard to find people to take them. Even if you plan your morphs well you are bound to produce normals from time to time.

There are many other snake species to consider, as well, some of which will breed easier than BP's or be easier to sell in your area. Lots of things to consider... spend a year or so enjoying some pet snakes and getting a feel for the reptile market in your area. Once you find out what sells you can make an informed decision.

[phogg]

There are many other snake species to consider, as well, some of which will breed easier than BP's or be easier to sell in your area. Lots of things to consider... spend a year or so enjoying some pet snakes and getting a feel for the reptile market in your area. Once you find out what sells you can make an informed decision.

That's actually another good point. I live in the Nashville area and I'm having trouble finding any place other than big box stores that have BP's. There certainly don't seem to be many folks offering a broad selection of morphs. It's also hard to find shows in this area. I wish there were more options around here.

[distaff]

That's actually another good point. I live in the Nashville area and I'm having trouble finding any place other than big box stores that have BP's. There certainly don't seem to be many folks offering a broad selection of morphs. It's also hard to find shows in this area. I wish there were more options around here.

Personally, I wouldn't even look at pet stores. For one thing, I think your chance of getting a snake with mites is higher. Even is the store is careful, the public is handling these animals, and they may be carrying mites from their own reptiles. Mites are not only a hassle, but a suspected carrier of IBD. IBD is fatal, and spreads to nearby snakes. Just in this past week, two members of this board have posted that they lost animals to what was likely IBD.

Picking a reputable breeder who ships overnight is the best bet for bio security. You can find a few advertising here, for starters.