Lesser bee x banana spider?

[ChelseaV]

So I'm still trying to get a hang of ball python genetics, it gets a little confusing since there are just so many names for so many different morphs.
In a couple of years I want to try my hand at a little hobby breeding so I've been reading up on the basics of pretty much everything.
Down the road I'm thinking about maybe putting together a
Banana x spider pair and hopefully getting banana, spider, normal and banana spider offspring from this hypothetical future pair, if my basic understanding of genetics is correct. From there even further down the road, I'd like to take a Banana spider offspring from this pair and maybe pair it up with a lesser. (i want to first work with dominant and co dominant genes before I start introducing recessives into my lines)
So from a Banana spider x lesser I'd get the following offspring:
Normal
Banana
Spider
Lesser
Banana spider
Lesser bee
Banana lesser
Correct?

However, im considering instead of just pairing with a lesser, finding a nice lesser bee to pair the banana spider to. I'm assuming since both are still dominant/co dominant genes, I'd get a lot of the same morphs that I'd get with a banana spider x lesser, however I'm a little unsure of how accurate my thinking is on this.
I believe I read somewhere that this pairing would bring about a Banana killer bee or just a killer bee morph? If I'm wrong, what would this pair bring about? Any morphs I'm still unaware of?


Again, I wouldn't be doing any sort of pairing and breeding at least 2 or 3 years down the road, perhaps even longer. I just find their genetics interesting and id like to get the hang of it so down the road I'm not playing a guessing game.

[h00blah]

So I'm still trying to get a hang of ball python genetics, it gets a little confusing since there are just so many names for so many different morphs.
In a couple of years I want to try my hand at a little hobby breeding so I've been reading up on the basics of pretty much everything.
Down the road I'm thinking about maybe putting together a
Banana x spider pair and hopefully getting banana, spider, normal and banana spider offspring from this hypothetical future pair, if my basic understanding of genetics is correct. From there even further down the road, I'd like to take a Banana spider offspring from this pair and maybe pair it up with a lesser. (i want to first work with dominant and co dominant genes before I start introducing recessives into my lines)
So from a Banana spider x lesser I'd get the following offspring:
Normal
Banana
Spider
Lesser
Banana spider
Lesser bee
Banana lesser
Correct?

You also have a chance at making Banana Lesserbee .

However, im considering instead of just pairing with a lesser, finding a nice lesser bee to pair the banana spider to. I'm assuming since both are still dominant/co dominant genes, I'd get a lot of the same morphs that I'd get with a banana spider x lesser, however I'm a little unsure of how accurate my thinking is on this.
I believe I read somewhere that this pairing would bring about a Banana killer bee or just a killer bee morph? If I'm wrong, what would this pair bring about? Any morphs I'm still unaware of?

You should stick with the first pairing you mentioned above. 1 - spider x spider will not add anything to you pairing. 2 - jury is still out on the spider x spider being a lethal combo.

Also, a Killer Bee is a Super Pastel Spider.

Again, I wouldn't be doing any sort of pairing and breeding at least 2 or 3 years down the road, perhaps even longer. I just find their genetics interesting and id like to get the hang of it so down the road I'm not playing a guessing game.

My responses in red.

Check out this site, it helped me a lot .
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/wizard/

[ChelseaV]

Ok, thank you!
I've been using that site to help me get the basics and learn the names of all the various morphs, it's a good site!

Ok so stick to banana spider x lesser. Got it. I eventually want to introduce some recessive into the line, I believe I read somewhere that albino x albino is also a lethal combo? I'd like to try to perhaps get some albino banana spiders, maybe albino spider, albino leaders etc. Eventually maybe work with genetic stripes as well. Like i said, this is all down the road so I have lots of time to learn. Thanks for any help!

[OhhWatALoser]

You're not the first to hear the rumor but Albino x albino is not lethal... It doesn't make sense for it to be. If an albino male is fine and an albino female is fine, wth makes people think something is wrong with breeding them?

[Penultimate]

Ok, thank you!
I've been using that site to help me get the basics and learn the names of all the various morphs, it's a good site!

Ok so stick to banana spider x lesser. Got it. I eventually want to introduce some recessive into the line, I believe I read somewhere that albino x albino is also a lethal combo? I'd like to try to perhaps get some albino banana spiders, maybe albino spider, albino leaders etc. Eventually maybe work with genetic stripes as well. Like i said, this is all down the road so I have lots of time to learn. Thanks for any help!

There is no proof on spider x spider being lethal. It might be, it might not be. The argument for it possibly being lethal is the neurological issues in all spider ball pythons. Other morphs with neurological issues tend to be lethal in the super form, so many believe that spider x spider is lethal as well. You can go with the banana spider x lesser bee pairing, but there's not really much of a point. However, if you want to add something extra, you could try a lesser pastel or something like that. Albino x albino is not lethal. You would get all albinos from that pairing.

This site has information on the known defects linked to ball python morphs. Hope this helps!

http://www.owalreptiles.com/issues.php

[ChelseaV]

Ah ok, I got it. Thank you so much for the link, I'll be sure to read that! I was actually considering a lesser pastel x banana spider pair and I may actually go that route down the road instead. I really love lesser bees, that was the thinking behind the banana spider x lesser bee pair but in that case I could just stick to the banana spider x lesser pastel idea, since there would be the chance of getting some lesser bees from that pairing eventually.

And for anyone reading this post, I have an unrelated genetics question. I was also playing with the idea of a lesser x mojave pair as well in the future. If I end up with a lesser pastel down the road, it would make sense just to pair that up with the mojave (possibly mojave spider, can you tell i love spiders?). From that pair I know there would be the possibility of getting some BEL offspring and I believe I saw in a YouTube video of someone showing off their lesser pastel x mojave clutch, that they were discussing the effects pastel has on BEL offspring. I don't know how accurate this was, it was just this person's observations of their clutch. I was just wondering, with this pair, does the pastel gene have any effect on the BEL offspring?

[h00blah]

There is no proof on spider x spider being lethal. It might be, it might not be. The argument for it possibly being lethal is the neurological issues in all spider ball pythons. Other morphs with neurological issues tend to be lethal in the super form, so many believe that spider x spider is lethal as well. You can go with the banana spider x lesser bee pairing, but there's not really much of a point. However, if you want to add something extra, you could try a lesser pastel or something like that. Albino x albino is not lethal. You would get all albinos from that pairing.

This site has information on the known defects linked to ball python morphs. Hope this helps!

http://www.owalreptiles.com/issues.php

There isn't definitive proof. White snakes have been produced when spider x spider combos were bred, which were shown by NERD. Those animals had more severe wobbles and were "trainwrecks". There's a NERD video about it somewhere. There are other morphs that have this neurological issue (Womas, Champagnes) - and there was a Champ x Champ breeding also produced a "Super Champagne" which was a pink snakes - produced by Dave Green, and I believe that snake didn't survive. So using what we know so far, and seeing other morphs that have similar issues, it's not definitive, but it's safe to assume that the super spider would probably be lethal... I don't disagree with you at all! I just wanted to provide a bit of information so the OP can make up her own mind . Risk it or not is upto the breeder .

Ah ok, I got it. Thank you so much for the link, I'll be sure to read that! I was actually considering a lesser pastel x banana spider pair and I may actually go that route down the road instead. I really love lesser bees, that was the thinking behind the banana spider x lesser bee pair but in that case I could just stick to the banana spider x lesser pastel idea, since there would be the chance of getting some lesser bees from that pairing eventually.

And for anyone reading this post, I have an unrelated genetics question. I was also playing with the idea of a lesser x mojave pair as well in the future. If I end up with a lesser pastel down the road, it would make sense just to pair that up with the mojave (possibly mojave spider, can you tell i love spiders?). From that pair I know there would be the possibility of getting some BEL offspring and I believe I saw in a YouTube video of someone showing off their lesser pastel x mojave clutch, that they were discussing the effects pastel has on BEL offspring. I don't know how accurate this was, it was just this person's observations of their clutch. I was just wondering, with this pair, does the pastel gene have any effect on the BEL offspring?

Spiders are my favorite pattern manipulating mutation . Enchi is my favorite morph overall so far haha. They're not the craziest and most mind-blowing single-gene, but it's one of the most powerful co-doms! I have a favorite for each thing.. huh... this sounds like it should be a thread... "favorites" lol.

ANYWAYS.... It's extremely difficult (borderline impossible) to really definitively tell the difference. I went ahead and took a chance to make a Crystal Enchi Pastel, and I have no idea if I made one or 2 haha. I produced 2 white snakes, they each have different faint patterns, but not enough to guarantee what the genetics are. I sold one that I felt wasn't the quad, and kept the other that looks like it may be more promising.. However I could totally be wrong and sold the quad and kept the double, or whatever.. It's a big mixup, I feel guilty for not knowing, and I now advice against doing such pairings LOL. Here are the babies though....

Female 1:


Female 2:


Here they are together. Notice how they differ, but not enough to identify the genes at play:

[OhhWatALoser]

White snakes have been produced when spider x spider combos were bred, which were shown by NERD. Those animals had more severe wobbles and were "trainwrecks". There's a NERD video about it somewhere.

those were super hidden gene womas aka pearls. However there have been a couple of other people who have claim to make white snakes from the pairing, one even took pictures. If NERD showed something like that they would have to back pedal pretty hard on their claim that breeding spider to spider is fine.

[h00blah]

those were super hidden gene womas aka pearls. However there have been a couple of other people who have claim to make white snakes from the pairing, one even took pictures. If NERD showed something like that they would have to back pedal pretty hard on their claim that breeding spider to spider is fine.

Per the video I'm talking about, they called spider x spider a pearl. I have to do digging to find it . It may have been a podcast.

Honestly, they have amazing snakes at NERD, but it wouldn't be the first time they'd have to backpedal hard on claims they've made...... I appreciate their videos for the sweet snake video-bomb, not for genetic knowledge... I take everything they say with a grain of salt.

[OhhWatALoser]

Per the video I'm talking about, they called spider x spider a pearl. I have to do digging to find it . It may have been a podcast.

Honestly, they have amazing snakes at NERD, but it wouldn't be the first time they'd have to backpedal hard on claims they've made...... I appreciate their videos for the sweet snake video-bomb, not for genetic knowledge... I take everything they say with a grain of salt.

If you could find that, it would be great. That pretty much would end the debate on it. That would be definite proof in my eyes. Heck most of non-lethal side of the debate is based off of NERD saying it is fine on the lethal genes video and them breeding more spider x spider than anyone else. Spider would then be inc-dom with the most lethal super out of the wobblers... as suspected.