Diamond x Jungle using tail as lure?

[carpet]

Anyone else witness this before? I am not new to Reptiles, but new to Morelia and witnessed my Diamond Jungle wagging her tail while perched on a branch. It was as if to attract something, very cat (or leopard gecko) like consistent wag for a couple minutes. Ate two rat pinkies after.

Back story, I just got her today as a young female and placed her with a young Male Coastal Jag. He was still hiding away, and she took up a position on the branch (actually a dowel). Would have got a video but my phone sucks and had low lighting for the introduction.

[frostysBP]

Why are u introducing them? Do u plan on housing them together?

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[Gio]

Back story, I just got her today as a young female and placed her with a young Male Coastal Jag. He was still hiding away, and she took up a position on the branch (actually a dowel). Would have got a video but my phone sucks and had low lighting for the introduction.

You just bought the snake, and you have already placed it with another?

No quarantine process?

To this point everything seems wrong here. A young male coastal "hiding away" which leads me to believe that snake is rather new as well and possibly nervous and unsettled. You have two young snakes together in the same cage and have undergone absolutely no quarantine process for the new animal which is very risky for a number of reasons.

Unless your snakes are breeding, and they certainly shouldn't be, they are solitary animals. When young, these snakes will eat other reptiles and it's not out of the question to have one snake eat another.

Maybe I've misunderstood something here, however from what I've read you are not doing things the right way.

You need to separate those animals ASAP.

[carpet]

Sorry I did not know this was going into a housing discussion, so I will explain.

The male came from the same petstore last week, (housed in groups of pairs or all females) and I suspect same breeder based on time they all came in. So I decided to quarantine them together in a 2'x2'x1' tank together with ample hiding, heat/cool and perch area, at least while young. I have administered many medications in the past over the last 30 years, so feel comfortable in this aspect of the husbandry. I would be more careful if I start buying more carpets, from private breeders who's snakes have not found themselves in the pet store chain.

From reading threads (comments of those who have large collections) and discussing with a couple breeders, no one has ever witnessed an issue with pairs or all females if kept close to the same size. The only issue I have heard being of concern is at feeding time, and I plan to spend more time understanding if that is going to be the deal breaker in housing them together. Also I will investigate if she could breed too early under these conditions. That seems to be another valid concern.

To the point of: To this point everything seems wrong here. A young male coastal "hiding away" which leads me to believe that snake is rather new as well and possibly nervous and unsettled.

It was in the evening that I introduced the female and the male had not come out of his hide yet. Not sure what is weird about that. He hides in the day and comes out on his perch at night. I think if you provide an appropriate hide for a Carpet Python, you will see they use it too. For example, not a big open hide box for zero since of security. I have a hide that he can squeeze into and feel protection on top/bottom. Actually, they are both using this hide now (it is more of a crevice than a hide) and I suspect they will both be on the perch tonight. I have a similar hide on the warm side, but since it is warm right now in Southern California, they prefer the cool hide.

[frostysBP]

Bad move man you should really seperat those snakes asap. They are competing For the hot spot in the hide not snuggling. And yes early breeding could be a very real possibility. Yes you might not have any problems. But I can guarantee you u are putting extra stress on them that is not needed. I'm not tryin to be a D but I don't no a single breeder that houses carpets together unless breeding or they are just hatching. Just my 2 cents

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[carpet]

Bad move man you should really seperat those snakes asap. They are competing For the hot spot in the hide not snuggling. And yes early breeding could be a very real possibility. Yes you might not have any problems. But I can guarantee you u are putting extra stress on them that is not needed. I'm not tryin to be a D but I don't no a single breeder that houses carpets together unless breeding or they are just hatching. Just my 2 cents

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It is actually an elongated crevice, one on each side (hot/cold) so they are not even in contact.

I'm not tryin to be a D but I don't no a single breeder that houses carpets together

That's weird because I found a few that keep them together and they happen to be breeders who infrequent forums, they just breed and don't chat much about it online. After asking one about this, they reminded me of the lack of understanding on forums, reminding me how I complained about what was being posted on the other reptiles I had success in breeding. I have bred over 100 species of reptiles with great success on even some of the most complicated. This success was willingness to try different things (with common sense and previous investigations) and observe their behaviour. I think I listened to the experts fairly well before this introduction, but I do understand the common knee jerk reaction found if you post on a forum.

With that said, they recommended keeping them like this for a while and once they get closer to a year, to move one out to another 2x2x1 (I have many of these). They recommended keeping them in 2 deep x 4 long x 2 high when adults together if planning on breeding or to keep separate for feeding in the cage, then hook training to handle. The feeding while living in the same quarters was the only difficulty in their experience.

[Gio]

Sorry I did not know this was going into a housing discussion, so I will explain.

The male came from the same petstore last week, (housed in groups of pairs or all females) and I suspect same breeder based on time they all came in. So I decided to quarantine them together in a 2'x2'x1' tank together with ample hiding, heat/cool and perch area, at least while young. I have administered many medications in the past over the last 30 years, so feel comfortable in this aspect of the husbandry. I would be more careful if I start buying more carpets, from private breeders who's snakes have not found themselves in the pet store chain.

From reading threads (comments of those who have large collections) and discussing with a couple breeders, no one has ever witnessed an issue with pairs or all females if kept close to the same size. The only issue I have heard being of concern is at feeding time, and I plan to spend more time understanding if that is going to be the deal breaker in housing them together. Also I will investigate if she could breed too early under these conditions. That seems to be another valid concern.

To the point of: To this point everything seems wrong here. A young male coastal "hiding away" which leads me to believe that snake is rather new as well and possibly nervous and unsettled.

It was in the evening that I introduced the female and the male had not come out of his hide yet. Not sure what is weird about that. He hides in the day and comes out on his perch at night. I think if you provide an appropriate hide for a Carpet Python, you will see they use it too. For example, not a big open hide box for zero since of security. I have a hide that he can squeeze into and feel protection on top/bottom. Actually, they are both using this hide now (it is more of a crevice than a hide) and I suspect they will both be on the perch tonight. I have a similar hide on the warm side, but since it is warm right now in Southern California, they prefer the cool hide.

This turned into a discussion about housing because of the initial post. It does not matter where you bought the snakes and what they did prior to you accommodating them. You have a COASTAL and a DIAMOND/JUNGLE cross. They are not the same and it is ALWAYS recommended to start snakes off separately when first acquired. The "few" breeders you know that house them together may have done so without incident. That's great, however you are establishing 2 new animals and you will not find ANY care sheet whether it be internet or written text that says snakes should be housed together.

If you are questioning internet opinion/advice then why are you here asking about tail luring in carpet pythons? I agree that it is a neat topic and it's fairly common in many species of snakes. Observing the event happening in front of you is definitely interesting, and worthy of discussion.

Not a soul here wants to start off tearing a new member apart, but if you think you are going to bypass quarantine procedures and basic housing practices, people here will question you, and that isn't to be offensive, but rather to try to figure out what you are doing. You will find folks here genuinely have the animal's best interest in mind.

I personally am not overly impressed with "breeders" of any species of snake unless they are well versed in the biology of the animals they keep.

I will respect folks that have extremely long lived animals and are not motivated by profit or having a special morph that hasn't been produced yet. Large collections mean little if the basic needs of an animal are being overlooked. Too many breeders pump out crap for profit and care little for the animals or actually have done any biological research on the animals they keep.

Introducing 2 two juvenile animals is not a good idea period.

As Frosty stated the two pythons you have will compete for the best spots in the enclosure. Biologically these animals are solitary and that's how they should be raised. Years and years of captive keeping and breeding proves this and you will find this as the best practice with just about every species of snake in existence.

There are a lot of snakes I'd like to own, but because I will not compromise the environment I keep them in, I have to settle for what I am able to keep properly and responsibly.


Best of luck to you and your new snakes.

[DennisM]

a tail wagging python is a sign of defensive agitation.

[carpet]

Gio,

It is not myself defensive, it seems more or less the "experts" of the forum want to force down a hard care sheet of sorts without question, over simply observing behavior and learning animals as individuals. I just explained what I have found and previous experiences on forums and discussions with those who have been doing this for many years. I also know many articles and publication writers go for the safest approach, because they are telling the community, not wanting naysayers to discredit their publication that they rely on for income or credibility in the community just as the breeders do. I also find many breeders know more than most and refuse to offer publicly the advice, so they don't have everyone breeding and competing for their business. So you might find some offer bad advice if you don't know them.

Is this community so one sided, that I can not say that I have other sources who are indifferent to the comments? I have yet to see any proof as to your claims as well, but have had people who I know study their breeders intensely, for behavioral traits and think otherwise. I agree, there are some bad breeders, but if you are breeding them year after year, there is something to the madness.

As for proper care, I have the ability to offer two 10 foot long cages, but I honestly think my housing is appropriate if not overkill considering these are hatchlings in 2 foot x 2 foot cage. Another thing is I was never set on keeping them together if I found any issues (contamination aside as I discussed this, they are already contaminated*), but the accusatory responses here made me feel the need to debate the comments, as I feel they where not exactly accurate or with any validity as to why, just this desire to have a hard care sheet, for every snake.

* as far as contamination, I know the location these come from has phorid flies (like most wholesalers and large retailers) that come in with the crickets. I did extensive study in previous collections / facilities and if you have these flies, and just screen, all of your tanks are infected if one is infected no matter how well cages are disinfected. I consider these two snakes equal in quarantine requirements.

With that said, I will continue to investigate things like nutrition of the rats that are fed, temps, humidity and other things that are truly important to the longevity of my pythons.. and laugh off this ridiculous thread.

[carpet]

a tail wagging python is a sign of defensive agitation.

I had someone ask me if she was coiled and hinted it might be that. I was just staring closely at her and getting ready to offer food. Based on that conversation and looking back, it seems she might have been agitated by me hovering over her (as I tried to look at her details). He said she probably got my breathing.