Heating Tubs

[piedpipper]

Hello,
I keep my ball pythons in tubs and am using heat tape and a rheostat to heat most of the bottom of the tubs. The plastic bottom of the tubs above the heat tape is 95 but on top of the newspaper it is 82 on the side with the heat tape. Sometimes the snakes stay under the paper over the heat tape and sometimes they stay on top of the paper where it is cooler. So is this equivalent to providing a hot and cool side? It seems to me it would be the same as they have the ability to get to hot and cool spots. Is my thinking correct here?
Thanks,
Greg

[kitedemon]

No, not really. The snake laying on the newspaper changes the amount of insulation by flattening it to the floor. It is likely about security not temperature. You still need to provide a proper temperature gradient side to side (end to end).

What is your ambient air temp?

test it yourself, put you hand on the paper and hold it there for a while. It will feeler warmer. You could also measure the temp just after lifting the snake away.

[piedpipper]

There are also hides above the paper so I am led to believe it is not a security issue. Also, I have measured the temp of the snake itself and it is definitely warmer when it is under the paper. The temp of the room itself is around 68 the temp in the bins above the bottom is around 75
Thanks,
Greg

[piedpipper]

Anyone? Is this setup fine?

[200xth]

I would not use over paper/under paper as a substitute for a true temperature gradient.

[piedpipper]

There is also a temperature gradient from front to back in the tubs. I wasn't looking to replace the front to back gradient. My issue is that the only place where there is a true hot spot (around 93) is under the paper. Above the paper the gradient is from 82 to 78. Which is fine just not a "hot spot"

I was wondering if they feel the need for more heat (like when they are digesting) are they intelligent enough to go under the paper? Therefore I guess my overall question is: are they getting their heat needs fulfilled?

Sorry for the lengthy question

[JoshSloane]

To answer your question, yes the snake is evolved enough to be able to find the heat. Make sure that there is a cool side for the snake to be able to be fully off the heat and cool down. Everyone seems to lose their mind about ambient temps. IMO the temperature of the air four inches above the head of the snake doesn't matter. If the air at snake height, where the animal lives its entire life is the correct temps, and it has a hot spot and cool spot of appropriate temps, all is well.

In my racks some of my boas find their way under the paper towel and some don't. Just make sure that if the snake is flush with the plastic tub that its not too hot to burn, which it sounds that it isn't. 95 isn't going to burn.

[kitedemon]

I take the dead opposite view,

Snakes have a single long lung, the lung runs past liver, heart and all major arteries and veins in the body. The temperature of the air in the lung plays a huge roll in the ability of thermoregulation. If the core is too cool they will not be able to heat the core with a surface temp alone.

There is an idea floating around (unproven as of yet) that low ambient air temps are why a snake will sit on a heat source and become burned rather than move away. In lab tests heat is used as a stimuli and I know from experience they will move away from hot or cool tongs but sit on ones that are room temp. Clearly they can feel temps. The fact also stands that many have had stat failures but never had a burn. My first stat failure was in a rack while I was away. I returned to 5 snakes all on top of hides, in water bowls and against the cool side. No burns, a hot spot of 160ºF and not a single burn or issue. Yet I know snakes have and do sit on hot spots that are this temp and get burned why? The best guess the vets I work with and have spoken to is it is due to low ambient air temps.

The two vets I works the closest with both believe that hot spots are just a fine tuning to thermal regulation. The air temp is the principal method. This is demonstrated by big breeders and some zoos that keep high ambients and no hot spots. I personally have seen a number of snake sick because of low ambients and correct hot spots.

Greg your air temp is ok cool but ok. If you can I would bump it up a few more degrees if possible (80ºF is great). That is quite a lot of lift over the room temp you have managed few have been able to get that much in a tub. The more temp you can pick up for the air the warmer the hot spot will become as well. I have never seen paper hold that much heat, usually I only see a few degrees. I might either fit the paper better so it does not lift up but sits firmly on the floor or switch to something different. Is the snake a baby? if so cooler hot spots are often better usually 88ºF is my preference.

[JoshSloane]

Thanks for the explanation but I think you missed my point. I was referring to where to properly take ambient temp measurements. If your thermometer probe isn't at snake height than you aren't measuring the temp of the air the snake is actually breathing. Most snakes, especially in a rack, remain on the floor of the tub, and breathe the air half an inch off the ground for the majority of their life. Taking air temps from a thermometer dangling above the snakes head gives you little information.

Also, as someone who has worked with many a vet, most will admit they know less about the advanced husbandry of reptiles than the average snake owner.

[kitedemon]

Ok you are right I did miss your point. I would suggest that as warm air rises and creates thermal currents that if there was much more than one degree no matter where you take an air temp reading it is not an ambient temp reading anyway. Often people claim ambient air temp gradients but by definition that is not a ambient measurement. Typically they are still measuring temps of a heater either directly or in directly. The air will move inside the enclosure and end up mixing.

I am fortunate to work with two very good vets, recognize what most vets don't husbandry is key to health and take an active hand in monitoring the enclosures.