I did not want to hijack the thread that I saw this advice in

[nightrainfalls]

First let me say that I am not against using small enclosures for small snakes. There are many reasons a small enclosure can be the right choice. Still,in the time I have been on these forums, I have seen the following claim come up several times. Someone will have a small (70-150gram) python in a 20 gallon aquarium. Almost immediately a commenter will emphatically recommend a smaller enclosure since young Ball Pythons are stressed by large enclosures. I have to take issue with this idea. In fact, I believe the idea is complete bumpkiss. I suspect it was invented by pet shops looking to sell more enclosures, and quoted by well meaning hobbyists who simply had not given it much thought. I offer the following as evidence to support my point. For many millions of years Ball Python neonates have been raised in a very large enclosure


This large enclosure is called Africa. I am not sure how many gallons Africa can enclose, but I am certain it is in the many billions of gallons larger than 20.


Furthermore baby Ball Pythons have evolved a series of sophisticated behaviors that allow them to cope with large enclosures. They have become nocturnal to limit the time they are exposed to diurnal predators like birds, and they have developed a predilection for very small spaces. Baby Ball Pythons generally cram themselves into these small spaces in order to protect themselves from larger predators. Remember, when thinking about the enclosure that Ball Pythons live in naturally, there is no enclosure. If Ball Pythons were stressed by overly large enclosures, the species would have gone extinct many millennia ago. In reality is not the size of the enclosure that baby Ball Pythons find intimidating, but rather the lack of appropriately small hiding spaces.


Following this line of reasoning, it seems to me that as long as many appropriate sized hides are included in an enclosure, it does not matter to the snake whether of not the enclosure is large or small. The most important thing is to ensure that the husbandry is correct within the enclosure. Of course a small enclosure may be easier to heat and maintain, so it makes little sense to build enclosures that are overly large. Still if only a large enclosure is available, or one has already been purchased, there is no need to downsize the enclosure. If one has a small BP in a large enclosure, it is best to supply as many small hiding spaces as possible, so that the snake can find one that suits it needs. I usually purchase several sizes of pvc pipe: elbow sections, straight sections, and three way connectors. I then simply snap the sections together into random shapes and put several of them into the cage. Smaller snakes get smaller diameter pipes, and I increase the size as the snake grows.


I also like to shred some newspaper in a cross cut shredder and make a pile of shredded paper for the snake to burrow in. Many neonates are happy to curl up just under the surface of the pile. In my experience, neonates generally find a favorite place fairly quickly and spend 90 % of their time impersonating a rock. They tend to settle in and eat well. Of course if a keeper has many small neonates, small shoeboxes or small tubs may be an optimal way to maximize space, but such a set up is for the keeper not the snake.


When I first acquire a small snake, I usually use a Sterilite or Rubbermade container with a locking lid. I use bulldog binder clips to make sure the snake cannot push the lid off. I use a 31 Quart container because it is easy to stack, and takes up little space. These containers hold heat and moisture very well, and are easy to sterilize. They are lighter than glass, and easy to drill for ventilation. I generally use a water heat system, since it never gets hot enough to burn a snake. After the first six moths, I build a custom acrylic enclosure designed to accommodate the maximum adult length of the snake. Regardless of the size of the snake, when it leaves quarantine, it goes straight into an adult sized cage. This system works well and in the long run is much less expensive than constantly upgrading enclosures as the snake grows


If any one has any evidence that ball pythons do not do well in large tanks with numerous correctly sized hides, I would love to see it.


David

[magicmed]

Very well said, personally I completely agree. I've personally kept an adult ball python in a (approximately) 100 gallon custom enclosure, she loved every inch of it. Before that she had a 20 gallon the first 2 years.

[Reinz]

I agree. I never bought into the smaller enclosure camp myself. In fact, I believe Paul from England brought this same subject up a few a few months ago.

[dr del]

There are a few suppositions in your argument I don't buy, sorry.

They don't use all the space in Africa for a start as you say. Nor can we replicate the range of conditions it offers. So forget about it. Any argument that starts with "In the wild" usually ends up with an idiot at both ends of it.

We basically try and emulate the hides and burrows they inhabit most of the time then eliminate the need to leave them for food.

Now on your other points it varies by snake to snake really. You are right in that most ball pythons will adapt readily to the environment if it has enough security, humidity and heat. However you do not need a particularly large enclosure to provide all that. In fact making it larger can cause problems in creating them.

And of course on forums you have to deal with the experience level of the keeper as well as the needs of the individual snake. It's perfectly true that your snake will tell you what it wants and needs if you listen to it but for the first couple of months it will be speaking in Klingon and you will be listening in radio waves.

Just my 2p worth.

[gameonpython]

it varies by snake to snake really..

This.

My baby ball python is in his 40 gallon and uses every inch of it. He always has been a "brave" little baby some snakes however may not enjoy exploring and find that all the space is pretty threatening or overwhelming. But, as everyone else has said as long as the snake has many hides to feel comfortable in, go as big as you please.


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[George1994]

I'm with Del on this one. You can make the same case with other animals that have a FAR bigger range than Ball Pythons. Dogs for example, in the wild they will travel in big packs and travel large distances, we keep them in our houses. Horses, once again pack animals that will move over a large area of land, most are kept in small fields and in tiny packs, often alone. And birds? Huge open areas to fly, most cooped up in cages for extended periods of time... A Ball Python is a solitary animal, we provide that, we provide the heat they need and the food they need, as they would get naturally in the wild. They do not move far in the wild, will often stay in the same place for long periods of time, as you most often see in the behaviours of our own pythons. They get given far more appropriate living conditions when it comes to the wild than most pets in my opinion.

[Stewart_Reptiles]

Many things work, large enclosure can work, enclosure with no hides can work, so does multiple housing, not providing a hot spot and feeding within 24 hours of arrival.

The problem is it's not about what works for an EXPERIENCED keeper it's about recommending OPTIMUM husbandry methods PROVEN to work which means those method will help new owners solve the issues they are experiencing.

How do I know they are proven to work, personal experience (I like testing and experimenting ) and the number of people I have help trouble shooting issues over the years (got to be at least one or two )

[Kris Mclaughlin]

Im so glad things go nicer here than they did when i joined. This would have been ugly fast with the people around...

I kind of support a different form of arguement. From our research on the NARA and other various herp sites, and interrogating alot of breeders, Bigger tanks should be 2/3 the snakes lenth long and 1/2 its length wide. We use a 40g breeder for our baby. The more it was planted, the comfier it is to her. Also a hardcore supporter of using uva and uvb for the snake(many posts in the end of the full spectrum debate). The thing we stand firm on is, the closer to all natural for Shiva the better. Shes even got a diy fogger. We slightly fluxuate temp a degree or 2 daily(always in safe limits) vary humidity, and misting(still making a rain machine). Because we feel nature is never 100% the same on a daily basis. Never a health issue. Never a hunger strike.

I am all about this debate, as learning the behaviors of other owner and their snakes, can be a valuable learning experience for everyone.

Bam! Nature!!!!




I hope this debate stays alive guys.

[C2tcardin]

Kris, I'm sure the topic will stay alive for many years to come as opinions on the topic can be quite strong and passionate.

Personally I'm relatively new to keeping BP's, so I tend to listen to those that I see have been around a long time and have experiences they can share. In the end all of us are going to make a lot of the same mistakes others who have come before us have made but that's all part of the learning process.

I have noticed that most often the topic comes up when a discussion is started regarding picky eaters. I recently picked up a 50 gram hatchling that was giving me a hard time with feeding so I switched her to a 6 quart tub. Now the problem is I can't tell if it was the switch from the 28 quart tub to the 6 that did it or the fact that I found live mouse hoppers that were really tiny. Now that she is eating confidently and aggressively I've swapped out the 6 and gone back to the 28 without any problems in her eating pattern.

As for comments on the OP I tend to prefer the Reptile Basics hides over PVC pipe just because I like to to a quick check in the AM and PM every day to see how everyone is doing and lifting the hide for a second allows me a quick peek. I would think it would be hard to see one of my snakes if they were in a pipe, at least hard to see if their eyes are in blue or not. Plus I would hate to have to shake out the pipe to get the snake out on days I want to weigh or handle it. Perhaps it's not an issue I don't know but that's what would worry me. Everything else David said sounded fine to me but then again so did everything Deborah and Derek said as well.

[George1994]

Everything else David said sounded fine to me but then again so did everything Deborah and Derek said as well.

Yeah, same with me. I honestly don't think it makes much difference, 32qt for an adult male will suffice, 50qt may be bigger, but if you are arguing that 'they have all of Africa' then what difference is 18qt's?

It has been shown for years that they live healthy lifestyles living as most people keep them, but it is all personal preference. At the end of the day, if you have 150 snakes, you aren't going to keep them in 3ft long viv's. Just not going to happen. You will have a rack system with tubs.