Multi gene x multi gene

[Citrus]

What happens when you breed a, lets say 5 gene, snake to another 5 gene snake?
What if they both had the same 5 genes, could it make a five way super? And what if you have 5 genes (we'll say a,b,c,d,e) and you breed it to a different 5 genes ( z,y,x,w,v) would you get all offspring with multi genes, all 10 genes, or would you be able to get individual morphs (like if genes a-e included pastel and genes z-v included a pinstripe would you get a lemonblast that carried 8 other genes)?


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[Eric Alan]

You have the possibility (albeit, a smaller and smaller chance the more genes the parents have) of getting single gene animals from multi-gene pairings. For your 5-gene x 5-gene crossing example, you have varying possibilities to end up with anything from a normal to a 10-gene offspring (which also depends on if there is any overlap between the parent's genes).

As far as your idea of a "Lemonblast that carried 8 other genes", that's just not possible. Codom genes are an on/off thing - either they are visually present or the animal simply isn't carrying them at all.

Have you played around much with a ball python genetic calculator? Here's one that I recommend: OWAL Reptiles - Genetic Calculator.

[Eramyl]

Pretty much everything you said is correct. You would have the chance of a 10 gene snake in case of two different and a 5 way super in case of all the same. 5 supers would be difficult to label though. It would have t o be cinnamon, pastel, yellowbelly, het red axanthic and another codom that doesn't come out white.

You would also have the chance to hit everything in between.

[Eric Alan]

Pretty much everything you said is correct. You would have the chance of a 10 gene snake in case of two different and a 5 way super in case of all the same. 5 supers would be difficult to label though. It would have t o be cinnamon, pastel, yellowbelly, het red axanthic and another codom that doesn't come out white.

You would also have the chance to hit everything in between.

Super Yellowbelly = Ivory = White

[paulh]

Others beat me to it.

Hi Citrus! Welcome to the forum.

The answer is the same whether we are discussing one gene pair or 10 gene pairs. It depends on whether the snake with gene a has a gene pair with two copies of the gene (a/a) or one copy of the gene paired with the appropriate normal gene (a/+). The other snake has a pair of the corresponding normal genes (+/+)

a/a mated to +/+ produces 100% a/+ babies.

a/+ mated to +/+ produces 50% a/+ and 50% +/+.

So an a/a b/b c/c d/d e/e +/+ +/+ +/+ +/+ +/+ snake mated to a +/+ +/+ +/+ +/+ +/+ v/v w/w x/w y/w z/z snake produces 100% a/+ b/+ c/+ d/+ e/+ v/+ w/+ x/+ y/+ z/+. All babies have a mutant gene in each of the 10 pairs.

On the other hand, an a/a b/b c/c d/d e/e +/+ +/+ +/+ +/+ +/+ snake mated to a +/+ +/+ +/+ +/+ +/+ v/v w/w x/w y/w z/+ snake produces 50% a/+ b/+ c/+ d/+ e/+ v/+ w/+ x/+ y/+ z/+ and 50% a/+ b/+ c/+ d/+ e/+ v/+ w/+ x/+ y/+ +/+. Approximately half the babies have all 10 genes while the rest only have nine. If more than one gene pair is made up of a mutant gene and a normal gene, the odds of getting babies with all 10 mutant genes gets worse. If a/+ b/+ c/+ d/+ e/+ +/+ +/+ +/+ +/+ +/+ snake is mated to a +/+ +/+ +/+ +/+ +/+ v/+ w/+ x/+ y/+ z/+ snake, then there is a small chance of a given baby having a mutant gene in every gene pair and the same small chance of having no mutant gene in any of the gene pairs.

If a pastel gene is in one gene pair and a pinstripe gene in is another gene pair, then the babies would include lemon blasts (with a pinstripe gene and a pastel gene), pinstripes, pastels, and normals.

[Daigga]

In shorter terms; a headache is what you get. You would have the possibility of a 10 gene animal if you crossed a 5 gene animal with a different 5 gene animal (assuming no same genes with no super offspring), but I highly doubt you'd be able to identify which babies had what once you get into the 6 gene + animals. Everything starts to blend together after a certain point so that snakes with 5, 6, or more genes just start to look muddy or staticky. Not appealing to me, and I wouldn't go above 4 or 5 genes just for that reason.

The odds are low in any case, as others have said. Just for fun, I played in the genetic wizard on WOPB. With 2 snakes with the same 5 co-dom genes in each, or hitting a 10 gene animal if they were different (the odds are the same for either) your odds of hitting that super 5 gene animal or that crazy 10 gene is a whopping 1 in 1024; aka not in this lifetime.

Your odds of that headache I mentioned are about 99.99%

[Citrus]

If someone attempted this, what's the risk of defects? I feel like that many genes increases the risk


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[Daigga]

If someone attempted this, what's the risk of defects? I feel like that many genes increases the risk


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Number of genes doesn't have any effect on defect rate, I don't think. The genetic defects are more linked to the genes themselves than combining too many (someone correct me if I'm wrong). Certain combos probably shouldn't be attempted (a spider cinnamon to a cinnamon champagne, for example, would produce very few ideal offspring), but otherwise I don't believe the number of genes matters.

[Eric Alan]

If someone attempted this, what's the risk of defects? I feel like that many genes increases the risk

The risk of defects is the same as the risk in any pairing. The type of genes involved, rather than the number of genes, is the determining factor.

[Eramyl]

Super Yellowbelly = Ivory = White

You got me. I was thinking super stripe, as that's one of my current obsessions, but that's obviously spector and yellowbelly.