Some updates

[Daigga]

So since I decided to give the whole rat breeding thing a shot, I've found that I actually enjoy it a lot, especially now that I have some babies to coo over. I did realize that I started out going about this the wrong way, which became apparent shortly after my first pair of litters was born. It was probably more my fault than either of my females, since I had them together in a space that I now know wasn't big enough for the two of them plus their pups (They had 20 between them). One mother was trying to do all the work herself while the other stayed in her little house and munched on food all day. I eventually separated them after I lost two pups, and the lazy mom did eventually try to take care of her babies (had to take away her house to get her to stay interested). I don't know what happened, but it seemed like she just didn't have any milk in her and out of the 7 pups I had left her with, 4 of those died within a day. Very sad, since I'm not sure if it was the mom not producing enough milk, or if it was my fault for not giving the two moms enough space in the first place. Moved the surviving pups in with the other mom and all of them are now doing well (fat and wiggly, which I'm guessing means they're happy?)

My second pair of females had their pups this week as well, and I had the bright idea to separate them BEFORE babies, and into bigger enclosures as well. The first mom in this group had 8 pups, and second mom is just now having hers as I'm writing this (up to 3 now).

I think I decided on using tubs for now, maybe eventually transitioning over to a rack, but I'm going with as much space as I can give these girls at this point. Should I be safe keeping two females together in a 101qt tub (clear, the biggest size I could find) with two large hides in it? My process right now is to cut some holes out of the sides of the tubs and put chicken wire over the holes both for a slot for the water bottle and ventilation. I spot clean whenever possible and I try to do a full clean every five days or so, but doing so with the babies in there makes me nervous. What cleaners does everyone use that won't harm the babies? Also I haven't had an issue with it yet, but will the moms reject the pups if I handle them too much? (I hardly handle them now except when I have to move them for cleaning or when I had to take one of the dead pups out.

I'm trying my best, and I really want to give my rats the best life possible up until feeding day (I have to remember why I have them, after all, and try not to get too attached to them along the way), and feedback/advice is always appreciated.

Lack of pictures because camera phone quality is crap, and because all the moms sit on the babies whenever I come up there with my camera. i'll see what I can do about that.

[Daigga]

It won't let me edit original post, but I did manage to get some pictures! I have some questions as to color, because it looks like some of my babies are gray, but the father was a buff-colored hood, and the two moms to these litters were an albino and a black hood. I'm not 100% on rodent genetics, but are grays/blues possible? Also, if these are a little over a week old, would I be able to tell gender? To me, they all look alike under the hood, so to speak, but I don't really know what to look for yet

One of my three solid black ones


A gray-hooded one (One of the few hoods, most of the littler is solid colored)


A family shot! They're in a tank right now because I don't have enough tubs prepared.


Camera phone is crap quality, and the little ones are very wiggly and don't like to sit still for pictures, which I'm taking as a good sign.

[TrueDatxD]

All colors are recessive to the base colors (black, agouti) But black is recessive to agouti. Albino is black based and im not sure what buff colored means, perhaps beige? which would also be black based. So technically, blue is recessive and can be carried by both base colors, so this means both your male and at least one of your females carries blue, and all of your rats are black based. Which your albino being red eyed I assume, and not actually pink eyed which would make it champange. To tell the difference in sex, males have more space between their tails and genitals than females. I dont know if this helps, good luck breeding

[TrueDatxD]

I breed on a small scale, so I dont think i'll be useful on information about housing with rat racks, but ive never had females reject their pups, though I have time to properly socialize all of my rats with people, so this could be different on larger breeding projects. I've never needed hideouts, but they do like them. And treats!

[Daigga]

I wouldn't consider myself large scale, as I'm only planning on having 12 females in 6 large tubs. I'm feeding 8 snakes right now, and figured 12 girls would be a good number, but now I'm running into a small litter problem. My first two had 10 each, which I thought was pretty average, but then the next girl had 8, the girl after that had 6, my fat girl only had 4 (what? Seriously, what???), and the last girl is just now having hers, and I swear if she has 2, I'll scream, but that doesn't look like that will be the case.

My questions now;

1. How much line breeding is acceptable before I need to introduce new blood? I'm hesitant to go out and pick up new rats at this point, even though I doubt I can hit worse than a litter of 4.

2. Are the litter sizes the fault of the females, or the male? This particular group had the male in with the first pair for a week, the second pair the week after, and the last pair immediately after for two weeks with no breaks in between breedings, because I hadn't heard of him needing any? I have him in his own enclosure resting now, and I suppose future plans will include breeding him to a pair of girls for a week followed by a week of rest. Is he shooting blanks, or what? As mentioned, he was in with the 4-baby litter maker for two weeks...

3. Bad luck, bad husbandry, or bad genetics? I mentioned before that I had them in tanks that might have been a little small, would this be affecting my litter sizes? Or did I just hit the crap lottery? Should I just feed off the females (or the male) that aren't doing well, or should I be forgiving being that these were their first litters?

4. I had heard average litter size was between 8 and 12, was I misinformed?

[TrueDatxD]

Uhm for me, average litter size is about 6-10. And i believe the litter sizes are based on the females genetics. I had two females that would have 16 every litter, whereas now all of mine on average have around 8ish. Having four is rather small, but her next litter will probably be bigger, but I think its more of just luck than anything. Could be genetics. Ive never rested my males, they do that by themselves. My males tend to breed more efficiently around 6 months of age and thats when I start to keep new males from my litters. Once you've had a few generations, I think that's when you should start outbreeding, that way you can see what you need to work on. I started with feeder breeders, and gradually bred them by waiting and seeing which ones were all together healthier and resistant to respiratory illness and lived the longest. At first they would only lived around 6 months. Then after about 2 years of keeping the healthiest, I could finally start outbreeding for other traits like colors, hair textures and ear shapes, temperments, etc. I usually wait until the females third litter before I decide if she's worthy of holding up the line because by that time she's about a year old. That way I know her temperment and how healthy she is. By now, I never have health issues, and it only took me two years to breed away from that. My males have successfully bred until around 2 years of age nonstop. They just slow down a bit after about a year and a half. But now I usually start selling them back to the pet store for store credit once they hit a year since I dont need to worry about disease anymore. I have around 25 females and about 5 breeding males. Probably buy a new rat or two every year to outbreed with. Mostly just to add a new color or pattern. I'm working on blazes, odd-eyes, and rex right now. Though I also have blue, mink, siamese, agouti and black based, dumbo, standard ear, and hairless that I work with. All from outbreeding. My line started with only black based blues, and pink eyed rats, and now after 6 years I have a lot of variations to work with, so if you find your rats are carrying hidden genes, youll only be able to find out by keeping your line or getting lucky with outbreeding. I'd say just buy your first set of rats to work with now, and wait and see what you need to work on. Just remember to rest your females, because they will get worn out. I usually give them around 2 or 3 weeks.