Heat cycles / Housing choices

[artgecko]

Hi guys,
Still can't find my good camera to take better pics of the girls (we moved in July) but will hopefully have some for you soon.

I've decided to breed two of my girls that seem to have the best conformation and personalities (buttercup and bubbles). I'd like to do one litter at a time to start with, but I do not care which one is bred first.

From various sources I read, I gathered that just introducing them to the male when they were in heat would be a better option than leaving them with him (apparently females are known to "beat up" males when not in heat?). I've been watching them for signs of heat since last Sunday and have seen nothing so far... No dilated vaginal opening, no excessive affection / grooming, no ear twitching ,etc. At this point, I'm wondering if I am just not looking for the right things, or if my girls show subdued signs, etc. I am checking in the evenings from 7pm - 9pm.

If I continue to not "catch" when they're in heat, which of the following would be the better option and less likely to result in aggression when I put the male / female back with their groups afterwards:
- House a single female with the male separately for 2 weeks 24/7
- Let one female have "play" time outside the cage with the male every night for 1-2 weeks for an hour or so (supervised in a controlled area).

I would just house the male with all three girls, but I don't really want to breed one of them (blossom) due to her small eyes and very long nose (nor am I capable of housing three litters of rats at the same time right now) and I am afraid of aggression towards Howard when he is returned to the other two males... He is not the alpha in the group and I'm not sure how well the alpha will react when he returns.

If you guys have any other input, that would be great... I didn't think breeding rats would be this hard (at least this part of it, lol).

[Chaoticpythons]

What I did, was I would take females I wanted bred, move them and the male I wanted to use for breeding into a tub that neither of them have lived in, with clean bedding that nobody had scented yet. I left them together for about a week or so. Until the females were clearly pregnant, then the male would go back to his cage and the females would get separated into there own cages for birthing and raising. I never had any issues of the males being nasty to him once he came back in the cage. If you're worried, clean and disinfect the cage and put new bedding down then put the males all back in together. This worked very well for me. Good luck.

[artgecko]

Thanks!
I just got a new cage, so i might try this. No one has been in the new cage yet, so this would be a good opportunity to use it.

[Lore]

Congratulations on making your pairing choices for your first generation of rats! I am pleased that you are selecting for conformation and personality in your stock. It is a good start to work out any skeletal type issues over the next few generations. Inbreeding and linebreeding are the best tools, when used wisely, to ensure success in your colony. Outbreeding is nice when adding in new genes, whether they be genes for better hips, larger eyes or even a new color! Color is the last of your concern right now though, you can change color easily within a few generations after you fine tune your "base."

When I breed, my rats (I always breed 1.2 in case one of my does is a horrible mother or unable to nurse, the latter being fairly common in some hairless lines(though I do not breed hairless due to a higher probability for poor liver functioning, according to several studies I would reference if I wasn't on my mobile device) are marked with vanilla extract (distracts from other colony smells) and introduced in neutral ground. Whether this be a cage neither have used or something as simple as your bathtub or a large slotted plastic bin style cage. Place them together in the late evening, as rats are more active during the night and early morning. I leave my group together for two weeks to insure successful breeding then separate all three. My male gets washed with no-tears baby shampoo, dabbed with vanilla extract and reintroduced to

[Lore]

(My post was cut off.) [...] the other males. Use neutral territory for reintroductions if you have a tyrant of an alpha. My females are split into two separate cages and given nesting materials as well as a temporary hide. (I use the long 12 pack soda boxes cut in half) This is where they will stay during their pregnancy then birth and rear the kittens. There are some people who do not separate their females but I do in the off chance you will have one very hormonal doe that gets violent with the other or if they pass the babies back and forth between them, which takes away from the time they could be nursing and interacting with their babies. For identification reasons, this is also the best method. I track my lines and would not be able to do so if I had to guess who the mother was for each rat in two litters. This is the method I just successfully used for breeding 1.2 rats (chosen for type and health) only one was born stillborn out of two litters of thirteen. Both litters are from first time does and all are healthy and growing faster than anticipated (Though I give a lot of kudos to what I feed them, I changed up food for the pregnant and nursing mothers as well as the young kittens and they are nothing short of vigorous.) I did not cull down these litters because both does are doing very well and the kittens are all above average weight for their age. One of the does is an absolutely exceptional mother and threw some absolutely crazy recessives in this last breeding that I did not expect. Her ears (though placed a little high) and big doe eyes as well as her large size make me thrilled for the prospect of these kittens. Their father is strappingly handsome, but he has his faults. If you ever want any assistance with rats or get in touch with me directly, I am open to private messaging and always happy to give tips and tricks. :]

[Mike41793]

Thought this post was for bps at first and was beyond confused lmao

[artgecko]

Thanks Lore!

I have three questions though.

1. I have a group of 3 females now, so if I separate the 2 (to breed with the male), will the remaining doe be overly stressed by being alone for this long?

2. What size cage or tank do you use for the brithing females? I have a spare 20gl long tank (with screen lid), and also have a plastic bin with hardware cloth cutouts on the upper sides / top. Would both of these be acceptable? I also have spare 10gl tanks with tops, but assume these would be too small.

3. With the breeding females being separated from the male (for the reamining time until giving birth)... Should I worry about stress / loneliness? Would this be improved if I left them together longer (until about 1 week before birth)?

[artgecko]

OK, must admit that the thought of housing and raising two full litters at the same time freaked me out a bit. I decided to just breed buttercup for now. She has been housed with Howard since Saturday, so I'm hoping that in another week, she will be pregnant, than I will move her back in with her sisters temporarily before I move her to the birthing tank.

So far I havent seen any actual breeding, just Howard trying and buttercup looking ticked off... We'll see.

[sorraia]

When I was breeding pet/show rats, I would watch for signs of heat and chart them. Some females are extremely subtle. Look for any or all of the signs of heat: ear wiggly, humping other females, dilated vaginal opening, bluish coloration around vaginal opening, unusual nervousness, unusual hyperactivity, "bounce and freeze" (basically if you brush the females rear she'll bounce then freeze in a receptive position, sometimes vibrating her ears at the same time). If I saw any of these behaviors, I'd pair the female up with a male that night, and separate the next day. At that point I'd start weight the female every couple of days to see if she takes. If she went into heat again within a week, obviously she didn't take and I'd pair her up withe male again. If she did take, I know she'd be due within 21-23 days of the pairing. Very very accurate method.

Now, I sometimes do that, but more often I just pair the male and female (or two females) together for a week then separate. I can't pin down the due date to a couple days, so it is some guess work. I have not had problems with the females attacking the male, unless she is really NOT receptive, in which case I separate them and try again another week. This rarely happens. Most males get the hint and will leave the girl alone until she's ready. This is especially true in rats who are selected for good temperaments (and I don't mean just temperament with people, but with other rats too - I personally am very strict about this, both now and when I was breeding just pets/show, I expect my rats to get along, I expect to be able to introduce babies to adults without anyone getting hurt, and I expect to be able to move rats around from one cage to another without anyone batting an eyelash).

I like to always keep rats in pairs. When I was breeding pets, I'd leave the pregnant female with her buddies until she was days from giving birth, then I'd separate her to her own cage (size approximately equivalent to a 10-20 gallon tank), sometimes leaving her with one really close buddy. Now, I leave the pregnant female with one non-pregnant buddy in a tub (jumbo litter box size), separating if they start arguing as she gets closer to her due date (hasn't been a problem). I keep my rats in trios just so if one rat has to be separated, the other rat still has a buddy. I also regularly rotate the groups around so everyone knows each other and so everyone always has a buddy. Rats are social animals, they do so much better when they have a friend to stay with, both males and females (currently I have 2 groups of 3 males, so 6 males total).

[artgecko]

Thanks for the advice sorraia- I had originally planned to just put her with him during her heat cycle, but watched for over a week and didn't see any signs of heat in any of the females, I may just not be good at looking for the signs. But there was absolutely no female humping or dilated vaginal openings that I could see. Thus, I resorted to this method, even though it isn't as accurate.


Do you think I need to leave a non pregnant female with her in the birthing tank? Only having 3 females makes things tricky at best, if I do this, someone will be alone, unless I pair the remaining female with the male while the pregnant female / non pregnant one are together.

Hopefully, when I get my additional females from the breeder I talked to, this will be resolved. Then I should have a group of five, plus any female pups I keep from this litter.

One other question: I have been reading an interesting article (the virtual mentor) for rat breeding, and she suggested only keeping back females from your first few litters. Do you agree with this? I will hopefully be bringing in 2f/2m from the breeder, so in theory, I could use those males for breeding (but I have yet to see their quality).