Butter and lesser

[Slowcountry Balls]

I also feel the same about Cinnamon's & Black Pastel's, het Red's & Green Pastel's, Banana's & Coral Glow's, Paint's & Sentinel's, and a couple others I can't think of right now.

Has anyone proved compatability between the Paint & Sentinel genes (or any others that look similar such as Neo, Speckle, or Nazca)?

[aLittleLessButter]

I've heard many times that the butter and the lesser started from 2 different wild caught snakes . They may have been different variations of the same line but they were found at different times so have bred different lines in the captive bred world. However since then, the lines have crossed so many times they may be indistinguishable. I like to think of them as different because I have multiple butter/lessers and my butter is much more of a bright yellow and my lessers are a pale yellow. The brown markings vary but in all the pictures I've seen, I still see more bright yellow in butter and pale in lesser. Something I have heard but not proven is that butters supposedly get brighter or retain more color with age where as lessers fade. In the end, it's relative. I believe they are different but have crossed a lot. Many argue they are the same. Believe what you would like

[ajmreptiles]

To my knowledge it is the same gene but different lines. The original lesser from what I know came from Ralph Davis' Daddy Platty project and the butter from someone else. You can look at them the way people look at coral glows and bananas.

[OhhWatALoser]

Different line of the same morph, lessers came from platty daddy, butters came from one of a few imported animals. Look at enough of them and the combos and the same issues with the super, theres nothing to make one stand as different from the other

As for the mention of black pastels and cinnys, there is an obvious difference in the super as the grow up. And even in the heterozygous it is normally pretty easy to tell

[TheSnakeEye]

I've heard many times that the butter and the lesser started from 2 different wild caught snakes . They may have been different variations of the same line but they were found at different times so have bred different lines in the captive bred world. However since then, the lines have crossed so many times they may be indistinguishable. I like to think of them as different because I have multiple butter/lessers and my butter is much more of a bright yellow and my lessers are a pale yellow. The brown markings vary but in all the pictures I've seen, I still see more bright yellow in butter and pale in lesser. Something I have heard but not proven is that butters supposedly get brighter or retain more color with age where as lessers fade. In the end, it's relative. I believe they are different but have crossed a lot. Many argue they are the same. Believe what you would like

Your statement kind of contradicts itself. You start off by saying the lines have crossed so much that they're one in the same now. Then you say you can tell your lines apart. I'm not trying to start a war but this is exactly why I say they're one I the same, because even if they are different animals, they have so diluted that you can't separate them now. I have hatched Lesser's that look like both of the descriptions you've mentioned and all from the same sire.

Different line of the same morph, lessers came from platty daddy, butters came from one of a few imported animals. Look at enough of them and the combos and the same issues with the super, theres nothing to make one stand as different from the other

As for the mention of black pastels and cinnys, there is an obvious difference in the super as the grow up. And even in the heterozygous it is normally pretty easy to tell

Cinnamon's and Black Pastel's to me are the same because I have seen Cinny's that look more like supposed Black Pastel's and vice versa. I have seen pitch black Super Cinny's and brownish Super BP's... So with that being said, I feel it's just natural variance like there is with every morph.

If I go purchase a pair of Cinny's from a breeder and these Cinny's are real, real dark, then breed them in the future and get the blackest Super Cinny ever, should I relabel them Black Pastel's because of the outcome? No. Because I didn't buy them as such. Even though they're one in the same.

I have hatched tons of Lesser's from the same sire and people still ask if I have butter's... And I tell them exactly what I've listed above. They're one in the same, but I choose to stick to using the Lesser name because that's what my male is labeled as but they can call the hatchlings whatever they like. Lesser, Butter, LesBut, ButLes, LBeustster...

[OhhWatALoser]

Cinnamon's and Black Pastel's to me are the same because I have seen Cinny's that look more like supposed Black Pastel's and vice versa. I have seen pitch black Super Cinny's and brownish Super BP's... So with that being said, I feel it's just natural variance like there is with every morph.

If I go purchase a pair of Cinny's from a breeder and these Cinny's are real, real dark, then breed them in the future and get the blackest Super Cinny ever, should I relabel them Black Pastel's because of the outcome? No. Because I didn't buy them as such. Even though they're one in the same.

I have yet to see a pitch black super cinny adult or even anything that could be called something other than brown, but I have seen some super black pastels that come close, obviously they all seem to brown out some tho. I'm not saying relabel anything, I just never seen the black super cinnys stay black.

I don't think you should really pick out a handful of animals to make a case either, trends across the board. When Lesser and Butter first came to the reptile shows, you could easily tell them apart (being closer to their respective lines), but after years of out crossing it became apparent they are the same thing, Lessers are consistently being produced that look like butters and vise verse. When I go to reptiles shows now with as long as cinny and black pastel have been around and out crossed, I can still normally tell which is which. Sure you get random animals that might fall in the middle and be hard to tell, but they are few and far between in my experience.

[zachbinger]

Same as banana and coral glow same damn snake lol

[Coldsavage32]

There is no difference whatsoever so don't for fall any marketing ploys claiming one is more costly than the other. I had someone once tell me "I have a Lesser that looks like a Butter"... There was also a $100 difference in between his Lesser's and Butter's.

I have hatched enough Lesser's, Butter's, Butles's, Lesbut's, whatever you want to call them, and have seen so much variance from one sibling to the next, that I can say it's all the same.

I also feel the same about Cinnamon's & Black Pastel's, het Red's & Green Pastel's, Banana's & Coral Glow's, Paint's & Sentinel's, and a couple others I can't think of right now.

I have to disagree with the cinnamons and black pastels I can always tell the difference by their patterns and I think cinnys are more brown then black