Is this a het red pastel?

[TheSnakeEye]

Based on what I've seen, Gargoyles are het Red x Cinny/Black Pastel (same thing). And based on the pictures provided, I am definitely seeing Pastel Het Red, not Pewter, not just Pastel.

Some people like to say otherwise, but to me Cinny's and Black Pastel's are the same exact snake. It's the quality of the animal that varies.

[jplehmann]

Thanks aalomon, and others, as the confusion over "gargoyle" turned out to be the issue. With clarification, the parents of my snake are:
Male black pastel x het red (the so called "gargoyle") and female cinnie x pastel (pewter).

WOBP calls the male an "onyx ball" rather. http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/onyx-ball/

Now the het red pastel labeling makes sense. Here were the possibilities.
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/wi...5&female=40,32

He says red het expert Ben Renick helped make the classification. Looking at Renick's site, here's a picture of what he calls a red het pastel:
http://www.benrenick.com/collection....Pythons&id=508

And the first WOBP pic of a red het pastel looks like mine too:
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/fi...pastel/001.jpg

As aalomon pointed out, if mine has pastel, it's very muted.

[jplehmann]

@thesnakeeye, Looking at what she could be from the calculator, besides red het pastel the other option where pictures look similar is the black pewter, which you said you don't see. What differences help you distinguish between these two? Is it the reddishness?

These black pewter pics looks pretty similar:
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/fi...pewter/005.jpg
http://pythonregius.com/images/produ...Pewter14F1.jpg

[PitOnTheProwl]

Personally I dont think "making a name for yourself" has anything to do with what happened with gargoyles. I just think there was a general mix up somewhere. Lace black back is not a common gene at all compared to cinnamons, and I think youd be hard pressed to tell the difference between a lace black back combo vs a cinnamon combo.

Its was meant as point one in the same. Look down all the "new" listings.
Then again is some type of description was required it might change a lot of things.

[ElliotNess]

Cinny and Black Pastel = same thing

WOBP would disagree....

While extremely similar to the Cinnamon trait, Black Pastels are a separate lineage with the same manner of co-dominant inheritance.

[OhhWatALoser]

Based on what I've seen, Gargoyles are het Red x Cinny/Black Pastel (same thing). And based on the pictures provided, I am definitely seeing Pastel Het Red, not Pewter, not just Pastel.

Some people like to say otherwise, but to me Cinny's and Black Pastel's are the same exact snake. It's the quality of the animal that varies.

Look at super cinny vs super black pastel as adults, they are not the same thing, they however are allelic, but still different like mystic and mojave

black pastel, cinny, het red are all proven allelic.

I'm not even sure what got bred, but people need to under stand this:

Male:	Gargoyle
Female:	Normal
Percent	Fraction	Traits
50%	1/2	Het Red Axanthic
50%	1/2	Cinnamon
View Results Page

so forget all those wobp results lol.

Edit: Just saw the parents, here are your possibilities:

Male:	Onyx
Female:	Pewter
Percent	Fraction	Traits
12.5%	1/8	Pastel, Het Red Axanthic
12.5%	1/8	Het Red Axanthic
12.5%	1/8	Het Red Axanthic, Pewter
12.5%	1/8	Gargoyle
12.5%	1/8	Black Pewter
12.5%	1/8	Black Pastel
12.5%	1/8	Black Pastel, Pewter
12.5%	1/8	8 Ball
View Results Page

[PitOnTheProwl]

WoW....... Just wow.
So the general consensus is WOBP is wrong on their original gargoyle?
Then the great question is: How to prove who to trust?

[aalomon]

WOBP has had more than one mistake, I think its a very good guideline but it is not 100% accurate. Just look at the candino. The morph calculator on the site says that candy x albino = 100% double het candy and albino and on the candino page it says that its a double recessive. Like with any internet page, use some common sense. Remember that its a website, not a Bible.

[OhhWatALoser]

WOBP has had more than one mistake, I think its a very good guideline but it is not 100% accurate. Just look at the candino. The morph calculator on the site says that candy x albino = 100% double het candy and albino and on the candino page it says that its a double recessive. Like with any internet page, use some common sense. Remember that its a website, not a Bible.

Yup, I think my favorite is them changing the names of killer blast and super blast and saying NERD created them first. http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/killer-blast/
because NERD didn't have BHB as the creator on their own page back at the time either: https://web.archive.org/web/20110827...ast-super.html

As for het red, this thread discusses the subject http://www.reptileradio.net/ball-pyt...utation-3.html and I have also confirmed this with other breeders first hand.

[PitOnTheProwl]

Like with any internet page, use some common sense. Remember that its a website, not a Bible.

I understand, anything written by man can have flaws, however WOBP is the first most all of us turn to.
On the "common sense" side I always go looking for morphs I am not familiar with to see what makes it.
Yes, this time it might have made me look a little stupid and that doesn't bother me.
When you google it there are more than a handful of "gargoyle" combinations.