Horrible way to handle. Opinions?

[John1982]

I saw a calm, inquisitive snake that was merely trying to muscle out of a head grab while it was slightly manhandled to a different enclosure. The snake never showed any real aggression and I doubt he was stressed much by the encounter. As soon as his head was released he went on his merry way seemingly no worse for the wear.

I don't care how tame a snake is, when you need to restrain the head their natural response will be to muscle out of it. The amount of effort they put into this(writhing, musking, thrashing, attempted biting, etc) is in direct correlation to the amount of aggravation the snake is experiencing. Even my tamest snake will act much like the snake in the video when gently restrained. The snake was not overly agitated even after the head grab, the main difference here is size and strength.

I find some fault in the antics of the people but in all honesty they did a decent job of showcasing the strength of a larger python without overly stressing the animal. As far as I could tell their "big snake, big responsibility" message was trying instill that not just feeding and providing proper care are involved. When working with large constrictors there are aspects of care that a single person can not do alone safely.

Granted, the snake did not need to be moved in this fashion and 90% of husbandry and care can be done singly by an experienced keeper but how else were they going to showcase the strength? That, with a dash of sensationalism, seemed to be the spirit of the video from my perspective.

[John1982]

As for the Brian bashing on his monitor and gator care, I think folks need to just chill for a second - especially if the only information you have is garnered from a couple minutes of footage. In the limited glimpse from his videos I saw clear, clean water for the gators and a pissed off monitor in a screen cage. All animals looked healthy and well fed and since I don't know anything else about the situation I'm not going to pass judgement. In the latest episode of snakebytes Brian sounded perfectly sincere and I believe him to be an incredibly positive influence overall - especially since they stopped harassing snakes into biting folks in their videos. He doesn't seem the kind of guy that would ignore good advice from experienced keepers so if you have concerns, and you are experienced, maybe you should voice them to him personally.

The talk about monitor care reminds me of a visit to the Honolulu Zoo some years ago. I had just finished admiring the komodo dragons in their rather beautiful exhibit when I walked up to the crocodile monitor enclosure - a large chain link setup with a concrete floor. While I wasn't a fan of their lack of enrichment the croc monitors were active and looked extremely healthy. I can't seem to find the link but not so long ago I read an article that they produced baby crocodile monitors - a feat very few have accomplished. I don't know if they had changed their setup or if the one I saw was only temporary but they obviously were doing something right to have healthy, thriving adults producing healthy babies. The point is, I don't know what their situation was but I saw healthy, active animals and wasn't overly concerned and ready to start flinging poop.

[jclaiborne]

http://www.varanustalk.com/forum/sho...ht=Screen+Cage

http://www.savannahmonitor.co/

This is just a short post, people (the founder of the site) that I would consider well versed in monitor care (as I am no expert, and I have just delt with a big issue on incorrect husbandry with my tegu because I took advice from breeders, which is why I feel passionatly about this topic) have tried to approach him in the past with no luck, he has a lot of info on his site not just the forum, backed by a lot of data from vets, field research, etc. Again this is my main thing, people see a big name with improper husbandry and they think its ok.

I look at it this way, and I'm sure I will get bashed/flamed for this statement, but here it goes anyways...if we saw a "breeding facility" full of thousands of dogs that were in small cramped cages with the bare minimum stacked from wall to wall, but were fed and clean and healthy "looking" would it still not be a puppy mill? If we saw the same facility filled with cats would it not be an issue about the well being of the cats? For a community of people that love their reptiles why would we not promote the best husbandry and care possible? After all our reptile friends have longer life spans then most "domestic pets". You could even say on an extreme level, we put humans in small cells with lighting, a toilet, bed, and provide food and showers and they will live, will they be healthy, probably, will they thrive, not really...I know that is a big stretch but I am just curious why we think we have the ability to justify poor standards of care for certain animals and not others?

[John1982]

I think your concern is admirable and I would be worried too if I didn't think Brian cared so deeply for his animals. My main point was people bashing someone for something when they don't have all the information. Brian's love for animals seems completely sincere to me so when I saw the smaller monitor cage and not entirely adequate gator pool I didn't jump to conclusions. Then I read a few posts back and someone mentions something about the monitor being in a feeding cage and the gators soon to be upgraded? The reason screen cages are frowned upon is that it's much harder to provide proper humidity and thermal gradient in them. If you can pull it off though they are actually BETTER than sealed cages because they also offer good air exchange. I know them monitors in the wild ain't livin in stagnant petri dishes.

I'm not trying to justify poor standards at all. I'm simply trying to promote fair treatment and full understanding of a situation before grabbing the torches and pitchforks. I'll have to find the other videos folks are talking about cause I seldom watched snakebytes - wasn't a fan of the "bite me -lawls - bite me" stuff personally. I have started watching some since they change personnel though and enjoyed several episodes. You mentioned beardies and blueys I think? I see no reason why either couldn't be kept in tubs if of adequate size and tweaked right. It actually sounds like a much better idea than many of the setups I've seen over the years.

http://www.varanustalk.com/forum/sho...ht=Screen+Cage

http://www.savannahmonitor.co/

This is just a short post, people (the founder of the site) that I would consider well versed in monitor care (as I am no expert, and I have just delt with a big issue on incorrect husbandry with my tegu because I took advice from breeders, which is why I feel passionatly about this topic) have tried to approach him in the past with no luck, he has a lot of info on his site not just the forum, backed by a lot of data from vets, field research, etc. Again this is my main thing, people see a big name with improper husbandry and they think its ok.

I look at it this way, and I'm sure I will get bashed/flamed for this statement, but here it goes anyways...if we saw a "breeding facility" full of thousands of dogs that were in small cramped cages with the bare minimum stacked from wall to wall, but were fed and clean and healthy "looking" would it still not be a puppy mill? If we saw the same facility filled with cats would it not be an issue about the well being of the cats? For a community of people that love their reptiles why would we not promote the best husbandry and care possible? After all our reptile friends have longer life spans then most "domestic pets". You could even say on an extreme level, we put humans in small cells with lighting, a toilet, bed, and provide food and showers and they will live, will they be healthy, probably, will they thrive, not really...I know that is a big stretch but I am just curious why we think we have the ability to justify poor standards of care for certain animals and not others?

[Darkbird]

Well, since this thread hasn't died yet and I've now seen the vid in question, I'll give my thoughts. Yes this snake was improperly handled by people with inadequate experience, and it could be argued that the owner should consider selling the snake to someone better able to work with it. Have to admit, even my wife, who watched part of it over my shoulder, was surprised at the way the situation was handled. I will continue watching, and hope this whole thing doesn't go the way of animal planet.
Now, on the somewhat offtopic subject of Brian from bhb, I am another one who has had the opportunity to speak to him personally, and yes he really is just as approachable and enthusiastic about seemly everything as he is on snake bytes. And though I do strongly disagree about some of his lizard care setups, I still think he is a stand up guy, and a great ambassador for the hobby. And the gators are normally in about a 10' diameter pool, haven't seen the recent episodes of snakebytes, so not sure if that's what everyone talking about. A kiddie pool to me is one of those thin plastic 4'-6' diameter jobs you get from walmart, not the 10' commercial grade pool I normally see in his vids. Wonder if I could talk him into letting me design and help build some proper setups for those night niles, lol.

[jclaiborne]

I think your concern is admirable and I would be worried too if I didn't think Brian cared so deeply for his animals. My main point was people bashing someone for something when they don't have all the information. Brian's love for animals seems completely sincere to me so when I saw the smaller monitor cage and not entirely adequate gator pool I didn't jump to conclusions. Then I read a few posts back and someone mentions something about the monitor being in a feeding cage and the gators soon to be upgraded? The reason screen cages are frowned upon is that it's much harder to provide proper humidity and thermal gradient in them. If you can pull it off though they are actually BETTER than sealed cages because they also offer good air exchange. I know them monitors in the wild ain't livin in stagnant petri dishes.

I'm not trying to justify poor standards at all. I'm simply trying to promote fair treatment and full understanding of a situation before grabbing the torches and pitchforks. I'll have to find the other videos folks are talking about cause I seldom watched snakebytes - wasn't a fan of the "bite me -lawls - bite me" stuff personally. I have started watching some since they change personnel though and enjoyed several episodes. You mentioned beardies and blueys I think? I see no reason why either couldn't be kept in tubs if of adequate size and tweaked right. It actually sounds like a much better idea than many of the setups I've seen over the years.

Thank you for the response, I enjoy discussing issues because no matter how long anyone has kept animals we are all still learning. The tubs that I have seen the beardies in were tiny with no climbing room, multiple in one, no bedding or if there was it was paper towels or sani-chips with a water dish and a hide. Basically a snake rack with a screen top and heat lamp, it just seems very miminalistic, and I look at my blueys and beardies in 4x2x2ft cages and feel that even that is small because they utilize every inch of the cage. I see how active they can be and I feel bad seeing them cramped. Even after talking over my build plans for the tegu cage with you I am starting to feel like my 4x8 will be small so we are going make an external basking area in the garage (2 car) that is being converted into the reptile room so it can free roam and stretch out while I am home. So far I have replaced the garage door with double wall insulated ones, put threshoulds all around the doors to seal them, connected AC ducting into the garage to temp control it, did an epoxy coating on the floor for easy cleanups. I do agree that the SB episodes have gotten better and his last episode he did seem compassionate, I just personally don't like seeing "bare minimum care" for any animal.

[Reptile Frenzy]

This animal wasent aggressive when they pulled it out. Yes it probably bit him a few years ago but then again he NEVER handled it! Like stated before he should have never been caring for an animal like this if none of them are python guys. Yes some retics can be aggressive but 90% of them are puppy dog tame. I think they could have protrayed a calm retic in the video instead of the "aggresive" one they showed. This is all the fire power the media and the government needs to ban retics. If you think retics need to be banned then you know nothing about them and are just like the rest that wont take the time to understand. You dont have to step in my house if you dont like them stay away from them. Dont crap on everyone else.

[DrummingT]

I agree he was afraid. But putting a video up like this is only going to add to the misconception that these animals can not be kept as pets. That's the exact opposite purpose of the channel. If a channel we come to expect to put our pets in the best light is putting up videos making them out to be out of control animals only because of poor handling. Then it's only a matter of time before they come for our retics. For those of you that aren't worried because you don't keep large snakes, they will continue down the line until the point of adding bps to the Lacey act as well. Videos making snakes look like monsters should bother you if you want the hobby to have any future. In no way would I chalk this video up as a win.

"Seriously this thing is powerful. This is not a pet"

This was like watching an advertisement by an organization trying to ban the ownership of large constrictors (the state of New York?)

In this weeks episode of Kamp Kenan he expresses contempt for anyone importing species that have been listed and does so emphatically enough that it seems doubtful he approves of any importation whether that is his position or not.

Primitive Tim recently had back-to-back episodes where he went into lengthy instructions to his viewership to seek out law enforcement to ask them for does and don'ts as to what is legal before going on a herping adventure. Tim was so pro law enforcement I began thinking of him as Officer Tim.

Then there is The Python Hunter. I have not seen an episode of this as I could not make it through the intro. The guy is a cop.

What happened to "The Adventurer"? The last episode he was catching Burmese pythons in the everglades. Before that he was playing with rattlesnakes. This show had potential. It appears to have disappeared.

Another note, if it bit ONCE, how do we know it wasn't some idiot trying to hold it when it was in feed mode? I hate snakebytes with a bloody passion. They do us a disservice to the hobby.

I disagree. I miss Chewy. Sam the colubrid girl was hot too. If you don't like watching Brian remove Satan from the drawer then you have gone over to the other side and don't even know it.

The worst enemy the reptile community has is the fifth column of people haters who own reptiles and work efficiently online conducting psyops operations against snake owners to sap their will to fight unjust laws.

For the record, I just bought a female Sumatran retic. She has a ferocious feeding response eating frozen/thawed as eagerly as live. I'm in love, she's my girl.