Thrifty purchasing...

[kc261]

Selective breeding is not only about starting off with quality animals. It is also about taking whatever you have, and making it better. One absolutely could start off with a low quality pastel, and by pairing it with nice light normals and holding back the best hatchlings, get some much better pastels within a few generations.

I don't quite get the desire to purposely start out with low quality, though. Although, I can see that it would be very fulfilling to reach the point where you have some very very nice pastels just by starting with a single low quality male and doing selective breeding from there.

Start with single genes? Yes, I can see that, too. It is a lot harder to know what quality of pastel you have when it is a 3 gene snake than a single gene, so there is at least some sense to it.

I wouldn't recommend this path. You won't make money, nor probably even break even, and you might have a lot of trouble selling off your extras, though. But if it is what you want, if it is what excites you, then I say go for it.

But, consider whether or not THIS snake is the right choice. There are all sorts of red flags in the info you have posted. My biggest concern is whether or not this snake is healthy. Please, if you decide to go through with this, look it over very carefully before finalizing the purchase.

Good luck!

[alan12013]

So about "safe" now... I take a great deal of pride in every thing I do. If in 7 years from now some one bought a snake from me I would want to proudly say that I myself know it's lineage and put the time and effort into it to produce this animal. If I were to buy from an already really reputable breeder I feel like it wouldn't have as much personal value at this time as I'm not too familiar with the community and still a newb. So the hard work of the breeder would barely be recognized by me. I wouldn't feel any different if I bought a really nice one that you sold me, one from a large seller, or a special line like NERDS "lemon" in the lemon pastel right now because I just don't know enough. Until I have a better knowledge of who is breeding and what they are breeding for I wouldn't be able to appreciate the animal or the breeders work as much as I should. It will take a couple years probably for me to get to the level of knowing the people in the community and what they're doing. Therefore I will go ahead and start my own projects while I learn. The projects that I want to do are like mentioned, single gene's bred BY ME for quality. Meanwhile I will take the time to post on the forums and see what people are doing and get a feel for things. I could be wrong and I do appreciate all advice and criticism trust me, but I think that in 5 years from now I will be as fluent in snakes as I have became with all my previous adventures from communications, electronics, food, etc and business.

Thanks Casey for your post, that's basically what I was trying to say. It's all about pride with me. With my previous jobs to include what I do now as a cafe and food cart owner I know every detail. I can tell people why or why not to buy a product and if I know that no corners were cut in the process I will tell people that and explain it. If I bought a snake from a breeder I'd want to tell my potential customers all about that breeder and why I chose them over others. Whether or not it makes a difference to others it does to me I'm a weird one. I will also re-consider this purchase. There are red flags and I do have much more information but am not going to mention publicly.

I will also get a feel for this breeder in Eugene and report back to you via PM. Also I could put you in contact with some people up here in the Vancouver area if you want. Waiting 5 years and talking to me would work too I hope anyway.

[alan12013]

I decided against the stressed out animal and got one that I know eats and was being taken care of. I took her home tonight. She is pretty good quality, better than my male pastel. Looks like I am going to have to build myself a rack asap!

[kc261]

I decided against the stressed out animal and got one that I know eats and was being taken care of.

I think you made a good choice.

[Pythonfriend]

The problem i see when you start out with low-quality pastels and work towards higher quality is not that it isnt possible. It is definitively possible.

The problem is that others have been there and have done it successfully after starting in 1995. You can decide to start from scratch, or you can decide to stand on the shoulders of giants. I dont see why you should pretend that it is still 1995, and start from scratch, when others have already done it, and you can make use of their work by paying a bit more for an absolutely stellar pastel.

The second problem is the market. The market for basic single-gene morphs is saturated and dead. In the end, many of these end up on craigslist for free, or end up in reptile sanctuaries, or end up in even worse situation. When buying animals for breeding, you should not buy from that bottom tier of the market, and when breeding, you should try to produce animals that are better than that. The problem is real, and hatching more normals and more low-quality pastels and normal-looking hets will make the problem worse.

So i would be open to the idea that it is 2014, not 1995, and that you can buy the genes that others have been refining for 20 years.


Others are producing stellar pastels as a side-product of their multi-gene projects right now. Other breeders that start out with single-gene morphs will buy an absolutely stellar pastel right now. So when your plan is successful, what will you have accomplished? You will have accomplished nothing that others did not already accomplish in 2005. But you will have contributed to the problem that more and more normals end up in reptile sanctuaries and in other bad situations. You will have produced feeders for snakes that eat other snakes.

I take a great deal of pride in every thing I do. If in 7 years from now some one bought a snake from me I would want to proudly say that I myself know it's lineage and put the time and effort into it to produce this animal. If I were to buy from an already really reputable breeder I feel like it wouldn't have as much personal value at this time as I'm not too familiar with the community and still a newb. So the hard work of the breeder would barely be recognized by me.

7 years from now, people will assume your stellar super pastel was the by-product of a 6-gene to 4-gene breeding, or that you purchased really really good pastels in 2008 or something. Noone will care about your story how you turned crappy pastels into nice pastels, because you did it 20 years too late. 7 years from now, other people that start with absolutely stellar examples of single-gene morphs today in 2014, will produce these stellar single-gene morphs from multi-gene to multi-gene breedings. So noone will be interested in buying your stuff.

People are interested in stellar quality pastels and fires and yellowbellys and mojaves TODAY, but in 7 years, new and aspiring breeders wont touch these with a 7-foot pole. They will look for stellar examples of enchi clown, and stellar examples of striped purple passions, and stellar jigsaws and stellar pastave enchis and stellar lightning pieds. If you can get personal pride out of that scenario, then thats good, because that will be pretty much the only thing you get out of it.

Line-breeding still makes sense, but it works differently now. For example, someone might adjust his pairings in such a way that he hatches out many mochis and many super enchi mojaves. And out of these dozens of mochis and super enchi mojaves, he will hold back the top 2% or the top 5%. So he will refine the mochi combo and the super enchi mojave combo until they reach show quality and people will need their sunglasses when they get posted in the picture section. And it will be a side-project, and he will try to get some high quality fire or banana into it and things like that. And in 7 years at a reptile show people ask "WHAAAT? thats really just a super mochi, you mean, just super enchi and mojave? OMG thats the best super enchi mojave ive ever seen, i cannot believe its really just these 3 genes". And your stellar basic single-gene morphs will be hard to sell for 50 dollars.

I appreciate people that are passionate about refining genes and line-breeding, they do great work and are important, stacking up the genes is one part of it, refining the genes is just as important. So i like it when people successfully pull off a project like this, and i like the results (Brian Gundys Mojaves come to mind). But it needs to make sense. Maybe Brian Gundy started the project with average mojaves, or with any mojaves he could get, so it started out similar to how you want to start out. But he started much earlier, when things were different, and is getting rewarded for it right now.

[decensored]

I'm late to the party

[alan12013]

That was some really good information! Thank you, I'll heed that advice. I don't want to offend anyone BUT I'm just so used to advice equivocal to "line breeding won't work, you're wrong" by people who don't have a clue or jump on band wagons. I've dealt with it so much in my previous jobs that I've become immune to it. It's for that reason I will usually stick to my guns if I have an idea about something instead of doing what every one else does. I understand what you are talking about when it comes to people doing quality line breeding for 20 years and starting with what they have achieved. You've helped change how I think and will approach breeding now. Maybe I can have my one pet project JUST this year and stick to only the snakes I currently have since I've already jumped the gun :/ Time is also a factor like you mentioned and line breeding with Pastels has been done so I wouldn't really be doing anything except helping my personal stock get a little better than average within a few years. All that in mined hopefully next year I will know enough to purchase from the breeders that I think are the best. Like you mention with Brian Gundy's Mojaves or like what NERD did with the Pastel, these are the things that I need to learn and those are the "giants" in which shoulders I want to be standing on when I start as oppose to just a "reputable breeder" that's probably just a guy who happens to breed quality snakes without a deeper understanding and passion for what he/she is doing. Regarding market saturation, I would never want to contribute to this and would try my best as a hobbiest to hold onto as many as I could if I didn't know a good home for them. I see so many free ball pythons pop up on craigslist or for 20 bucks and it makes me sad. I even recently considered purchasing 3 normals (2 male 1 female) that were all housed together just to rescue them for 50 dollars with tank and accessories included. The cafe affords me to meet tons and tons of regular customers that I've talked to and most have kids or relatives that would buy a snake or chameleon from me and I trust they would return them if needed. Thanks again for the helpful advice. Post script: Your signature rocks. A couple jokes come to mind regarding another 1/3 of the worlds economy but I'll keep that to myself...

[For Goodness Snakes]

In 2002 I purchased my first mojave from Dan and Colette Southerland (The Snake Keeper). My friend Dwayne Richard (Dan and Colette's partner) along with Dan and Colette hand picked what they thought were the best 3 mojaves that they produced that season. I met Dan, Colette and Dwayne at their booth at the Anaheim Show and picked from this group of 3 mojaves. These mojaves were being held off of the table until I had made my choice. That mojave was by far the nicest looking mojave I had ever seen. I took that snake home and in a few months bred him to several of my best looking normals, not just any normals, but they had to explode with color. From there I bred those babies back to their parents and kept holding back the best ones and breeding from them. If I had to take a guess I'd say that 80 to 90 % of the snakes in my collection were produced by me. Most people don't realize that most of my pastels are related, all of my mojaves and mojave combos are related, all of my pieds are related, all of my clowns are related, all of my crystals and the list goes on.

I always recommend that new ball python breeders should start off by purchasing the snake they have been dreaming about owning. If the snake is outrageously expensive then better yet. I've saved up for over a year to purchase several of the snakes that I wanted in my collection.

It was while breeding colubrids that I realized that if I produced a very high quality baby king snake I could ask a higher price and if the quality was there I could get 2 and sometimes 3 times over the market value for the kings, milks and corns that I sold. When I switched over to ball pythons I mostly purchased from those breeders that were actively focused on incorporating a selective breeding program.

If you want to produce beautiful snakes, breed from beautiful snakes, if you want to produce beautiful horses then breed from beautiful horses and if you want to produce beautiful kids, well you get the picture....LOL



Brian Gundy / For Goodness Snakes / 408-981-6694 / fgsnakes@sbcglobal.net

[alan12013]

Brian, thank you for the response on my thread! I recently decided as a life choice to get into this and have only acquired a pair of pastels and ghosts as well as what I believe to be an amazing spider. I want to build up a nice set of normals too all with various outstanding traits that I can use as you did with your Mojave to normal breeding. I want a good selective breeding breeding program first and foremost before the "gene packing" begins. I'm also setting money aside to buy from a big name such as yourself for my "dream snakes". I just didn't want to purchase a dream snake first year without being able to fully understand and appreciate what I was getting. That being said I wouldn't be offended if you kept me in mind if you have any amazing single genes or normals that you think would be useful I want to have my own stock built up and keep most of what I produce so I can breed the best to the best or whatever I think would be most suited for the desired results. What you mentioned about your colubrids makes sense to me and that's what I'm hoping for. I would love to have a collection where I could say that 80-90% were produced by me. I think that there is some logic that needs to be applied when bringing outside quality snakes into the collection instead of willy nilly or flat out only buying expensive quality snakes from the beginning unless you have tons of money to spend on snakes of all types and morphs.

So if my parents are ugly then... :/

[wescoast]

Agreed. Start with quality and u wont get let down. I got my fav genes and started from there. Small start small projct. I have what I belive ur o be stunning looking snakes. And what I would want to buy some of these 5 gene may be expensive and contain multi genes but they are not visually stunning. Lessers ghosts and what not. It just doesnt look good.

My start up is two beautiful balls
Bumble bee female
Pastave male

End game: mojave killer bee
And everything inbetween is beautitul and stunning yellow and black contrast with 3 12% options