Set up for new snake

[moorea]

I've just purchased a new ball python. He was hatched on 9/11/2013 and is currently 146 grams. I have also purchased a 36 x 24 x 12 PVC enclosure as well as a Radiant Heat Panel for the enclosure. The enclosure will not ship for about 6 to 8 weeks. The ball however will be shipping next week.

The breeder feels he should be ready for the enclosure I have purchased when it gets here in a few months. As I have already spent a bunch of money on the permanent enclosure, I am looking for the cheapest set up for him (but still safe) until the permanent setup gets here. At the moment I have nothing. Breeder says he is currently in a tub that is 14 long x 5 high x 8 wide. The inside temperature of our home for the next month or so will range from a high of 85 degrees and low of 60 (these are just rough guesses, probably will never get as low as 60 but it is possible) we do not have AC and now that it is summer heaters are turned off.

Please help me by suggesting cheap (but safe) methods for a temporary enclosure and heating for the next few months until he is ready to go into is permanent home. Links to items would be appreciated.

Some photos of the snake that will be arriving (still does not have a name) first one is the latest photo

[Pythonfriend]

have you already purchased a good thermostat?

if thats not in the package you are already getting, you could get a good thermostat, and use it with an UTH, and use the same thermostat with the final setup.

some heat tape or a heat mat shouldnt be too expensive, and you can use it to make a hot spot in the final setup.

EDIT: and then the temporary setup would be a basic tub setup with a hotspot and a thermostat and hide and water bowl.

[KMG]

Is the RHP set in stone? Why do you want to go this route? I ask because its kinda a strange way to go for a ball.

I have three pvc cages that are 48x24x15 with both a UTH and a RHP. I was planning on using these setups to house snakes in a room that stays 68-70. I found that the RHP would not keep the ambient temps within the desired range without creating a hotspot that was much warmer than wanted. I ended up turning the RHPs off and getting a oil filled heater to heat the room. I also found that the RHPs were warming the top of the hide but the interior of the hide was staying much lower than the top of the hide. I was using black hides and a grey cat litter box hide and neither warmed on the inside like I needed. That was with the RHPs alone, just testing their capabilities.

It was a good thing that I opted for the belly heat too because that was the route I had to go for their hotspot. If you could change the RHP to a UTH I think it would serve you better or just order it without heat and put the UTH you already need on it when it arrives. RHPs have their place and it works perfect for my GTP setup since he perches directly in the heat path without a hide but it many cases that do not raise the ambient temps high enough. From what I have read they seem to work better in thick walled cages such as ones made of wood, but then that's a separate issue.

The one thing you are going to need regardless of the setup is a thermostat(tstat). I good tstat can run any type of heat source such as a UTH, RHP, or heat bulb but not all tstats are created equal. I like Herpstat by Spyder Robotics. I have four of their units and they are great. They are doing a 10% off summer sale now too. http://spyderrobotics.com/

You need to buy the best tstat you can afford as its the most important tool to keep your snake safe and healthy. If you buy cheap you get cheap. If you have temp swings in your home your going to want a unit that can handle the swings well. Plus the nicer models will track temps(highs and lows) so you can make sure your not having spikes or drops way out of range when you are away. The Herpstat 1, 2, and 4 will do that plus much more.

Here is a very recent thread about a cheap tstat failing and burning the snake causing much more in vet bills than a good tstat would have cost in the beginning. This person did a brave thing of owning up to their mistake and used it to hopefully teach others to not make the same mistakes.
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...38#post2254938

Tstats have been discussed heavily here and there are many recent threads on different ones. Search through the recent threads and you will see many different options and a few ideas on where to maybe pick one up used.

As for a temporary setup I would recommend a tub with locking lid with a UTH. You can put aluminum foil on the sticky side of the UTH and then tape it in place on the tub so that it can be easily removed for cleaning or changing locations without damaging the UTH mat. This mat could even be moved to the pvc cage when it arrives.

I would suggest that you start to monitor the temps in your house. That is a wide range you threw out and if it really does have that much swing we will need to find a way to level it out. This could be as easy as adding a heat lamp or small room heater to keep the temps more stable. A heat lamp suspended on a stand or string can be very effective with a tub if needed. We can tackle that once we have better information.

[moorea]

have you already purchased a good thermostat?

if thats not in the package you are already getting, you could get a good thermostat, and use it with an UTH, and use the same thermostat with the final setup.

some heat tape or a heat mat shouldnt be too expensive, and you can use it to make a hot spot in the final setup.

EDIT: and then the temporary setup would be a basic tub setup with a hotspot and a thermostat and hide and water bowl.

So for the tub he will be in until the enclosure gets here he will need heat tape or UTH, hide and water bowl? Will I need substrate for the tub, I have seen many breeder videos where they are pulling tubs out of a rack that do not have substrate. I assume I will require thermometer and something to test humidity for the tub, or is this not needed for the tub?

I have not purchased the thermostat yet, but Pro Products has suggested a thermostat that they think will be best to use with RHP. I'm not 100% sure I want to use this thermostat with the temporary setup as when the enclosure gets here we will want to set it up and test it for a few days to a week to make sure we are hitting our target temps and humidity. If that is the case I will have to pull the thermostat from the tub the snake is currently in and he will no longer have a thermostat. So I was hoping that someone can point me towards a cheap but thermostat to use for a few months.

Additionally Pro Products said I would not need a heat mat or UTH with the radiant heat unit they are suggesting.

Is this correct or are they steering me wrong. Here are a few inserts from the very long email they sent me.

"We recommend the Johnson Controls A419 series of thermostats. They are an industrial quality, UL and CE rated brand that is more reliable and less expensive than many popular brands of thermostats sold in our industry. They can be purchased in a hardwired version (requires installing the power cord where an inexpensive extension cord can be used) through many vendors for under $60.00. One you can try is: http://www.pexsupply.com/Johnson-Con...-120-240v-SPDT You can also purchase the unit pre-wired if you are not comfortable wiring the unit yourself. We find the following link through Amazon has a good price for the pre-wired model A419ABG-3C: http://www.amazon.com/Johnson-Contro.../dp/B00368D6JA"


"I do not agree regarding the use of undertank heaters for your cage or in general. Our natural heat source is the sun and all reptiles have evolved being heated from overhead with this radiant heat source. Heating with a Pro Heat radiant panel will replicate this type of energy from overhead, allowing the animals to react more naturally and will heat all of the objects in the cage in the same manner. Not only is heating from below not natural (and we can debunk any statement saying any reptile needs an undertank heater), many undetank heaters are not UL listed for this purpose and many short out and cause numerous fires every year. Plastic is also an insulator, so putting an undertank heater on the underside of a cage is inefficient by trying to force heat through the cage bottom. When sized properly, our Pro Heat panels are the only heat source needed and eliminate any risk of a fire or other problem associated with other types or heaters."

[Pythonfriend]

get a good thermostat they run with UTHs, radiant heat panels, even with heat bulbs, a good thermostat is required in any setup.

some have several channels, so you could get one that has two channels, and use the UTH with one temperature probe for the hot spot and the radiant heat panel with a second temperature probe for ambient temperatures.

and for the in-between setup, you use that same thermostat for just a hot spot. you could transition with long-enough cables by running the hot spot in the in-between enclosure over channel 1, and using channel 2 to test-run the RHP in the final enclosure. or you could just heat your room for 2 days to switch over and to test the new setup without the BP in it. i wouldnt spend money on a bad temporary thermostat, i would rather just heat the room for a transition.

i dont know what thermostats are the best, people here keep recommending the herpstat series from http://www.spyderrobotics.com/ . but they seem rather pricey.

about the substrates.... many people use some real substrate and many people use paper towels, or old newspaper, or unprinted newspaper. but some absorbant substrate is a must, you cannot let them sit around on bare plastic, what if they have to pee.


EDIT: oh, and, BPs are nocturnal, they dont bask, the quote seems to be geared to reptiles in general. BPs like hot spots.

[moorea]

Is the RHP set in stone? Why do you want to go this route? I ask because its kinda a strange way to go for a ball.

I have three pvc cages that are 48x24x15 with both a UTH and a RHP. I was planning on using these setups to house snakes in a room that stays 68-70. I found that the RHP would not keep the ambient temps within the desired range without creating a hotspot that was much warmer than wanted. I ended up turning the RHPs off and getting a oil filled heater to heat the room. I also found that the RHPs were warming the top of the hide but the interior of the hide was staying much lower than the top of the hide. I was using black hides and a grey cat litter box hide and neither warmed on the inside like I needed. That was with the RHPs alone, just testing their capabilities.

It was a good thing that I opted for the belly heat too because that was the route I had to go for their hotspot. If you could change the RHP to a UTH I think it would serve you better or just order it without heat and put the UTH you already need on it when it arrives. RHPs have their place and it works perfect for my GTP setup since he perches directly in the heat path without a hide but it many cases that do not raise the ambient temps high enough. From what I have read they seem to work better in thick walled cages such as ones made of wood, but then that's a separate issue.

The one thing you are going to need regardless of the setup is a thermostat(tstat). I good tstat can run any type of heat source such as a UTH, RHP, or heat bulb but not all tstats are created equal. I like Herpstat by Spyder Robotics. I have four of their units and they are great. They are doing a 10% off summer sale now too. http://spyderrobotics.com/

You need to buy the best tstat you can afford as its the most important tool to keep your snake safe and healthy. If you buy cheap you get cheap. If you have temp swings in your home your going to want a unit that can handle the swings well. Plus the nicer models will track temps(highs and lows) so you can make sure your not having spikes or drops way out of range when you are away. The Herpstat 1, 2, and 4 will do that plus much more.

Here is a very recent thread about a cheap tstat failing and burning the snake causing much more in vet bills than a good tstat would have cost in the beginning. This person did a brave thing of owning up to their mistake and used it to hopefully teach others to not make the same mistakes.
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...38#post2254938

Tstats have been discussed heavily here and there are many recent threads on different ones. Search through the recent threads and you will see many different options and a few ideas on where to maybe pick one up used.

As for a temporary setup I would recommend a tub with locking lid with a UTH. You can put aluminum foil on the sticky side of the UTH and then tape it in place on the tub so that it can be easily removed for cleaning or changing locations without damaging the UTH mat. This mat could even be moved to the pvc cage when it arrives.

I would suggest that you start to monitor the temps in your house. That is a wide range you threw out and if it really does have that much swing we will need to find a way to level it out. This could be as easy as adding a heat lamp or small room heater to keep the temps more stable. A heat lamp suspended on a stand or string can be very effective with a tub if needed. We can tackle that once we have better information.

Yes, those temps are fairly accurate for the house. During the summer months it is normal to have 90 to 95 degree days and then the evenings then drop to the 50's or even the mid 40's. It is of course different from June to July to August, but 40 degree differences from day to night outside are not.

Please read the post I just made, we were posting at the same time and it should answer some of your questions. And no the RHP and Thermostat have not been purchased yet. I am still debating on the thermostat suggested by Pro Products or the Herpstat 1/2.

Pro heat also said in their very long reply:

"Many of the cheaper thermostats sold in our industry are just that which do have a history of failing (often in the on position). Some of the high end thermostats in our industry are also unreliable and many are not UL listed (look around your house at any electrical appliance and they will all be UL listed). This means that there was no safety design testing by a certified UL laboratory and there is no outside quality control to make sure they are not a safety risk and every unit built follows specific safety guidelines to make sure it will operate properly and not create a fire hazard or other risk. This is why it is important to make sure what you buy is UL listed as a finished product with the "UL" symbol on the label."

So I wanted to make sure the herpstat met these requirements before purchase as the tstat suggested by Pro Products is close to $140 cheaper then the herpstat. Regardless of if I go with the herpstat (around $200) or the Johnson Controls A419 (around $60) I was also hoping to not have to by two to get me through the week or so we were testing the new enclosure while it gets here, but it is sounding like there are no good quality cheaper ones.

The reason for the RHP is we live in a remote log cabin in Montana. it is not unusual for the outside temps to get to negative 35 in the winter and the temps in the house to be at 50 to 55 degrees on colder days. From everything i read on this forum with those temperatures RHP is what I want. So after reading your post, the other posts I have read here and the email sent to me by Pro Products I am not sure who is right and who is wrong. I know pro products comes highly recommended, could the quality of the RHP make a difference to your post?

[KMG]

I have Pro Products RHPs in my cages. I spoke to them and got what they suggested for my cage sizes but they just didn't work as expected. I'm not knocking their products. I like the units I have and they are well made. They just do not seem to be a good choice for people that have cages in colder rooms.

As for that tstat I don't know much about it but if they are recommending it I'm sure its good but I can not offer any more help on that particular one. Getting it because of its price and using it while getting your main cage setup seems to be a good idea. Another way to go is to get a Herpstat2 new or used. That unit can control two devices so it could control both your tub and the cage. Then your also setup for your next snake or you can use the other output to control a light or maybe the heat lamp you may need.

I would still watch your room temps and I believe a small room heater will be needed sometimes. Walmart sells Accurite indoor/outdoor thermometers and it shows humidity. You can use this in your room for now and them in your tub and cage. They are about $12.

[moorea]

Small heaters for the rooms themselves are not options. Our house is pretty big and the rooms are pretty big. If small heaters worked to heat the rooms, we would not be letting them drop into the 50's come winter time for our own comfort.

Thanks for the other info though, I guess I will have to rethink the Pro Products RHP's. They seemed to come highly recommended and what where suggested here for my temps.

[KMG]

Some keepers keep their snakes in a closet. A small heater, on a tstat, can easily heat a closet.

I'm sorry to put doubt about the rhp. I just know I was in the same spot and it didn't work like I thought it would and I don't have the temp fluctuation that you do. I just would hate for you to put money into something that you end up not using or needing.

[moorea]

I think I am going to order the herpstat 2 and it can be used for both the temporary and the permanent enclosure. It seems to me as long as everything is on a good thermostat I can disregard the suggestion from Pro Products not to use a UTH and use one any way. I had also spoken to another breeder as well as Ed from Constrictors Northwest. Both felt that the UTH would not be necessary with the Pro Heat RHP, but suggested it couldn't hurt to get one any way, hook it up to a thermostat and if it never came on it wouldn't hurt.

So what would be a good suggestion for a UTH that can be used on the tub and then moved to the PVC enclosure when that is ready?