Discussion time - Boredom and "enrichment" in snakes

[CORBIN911]

Man, I've got teenagers. Add in 'endless hours of video games and hostility when disturbed' and you've nailed it.

Hahaha Hey man sometimes i game endlessly when snakes are clean and nothing else to do and nones home!!!!

[Pythonfriend]

somehow i dont think they just hide all the time and sit around to ambush rhodents.

there is this ball python temple in Benin that a few hundred ball pythons use as a hiding place during the day. and each night they all move out, all of them leave the temple behind and go hunting in the surrounding areas. in the morning they all return. farmers that have ball pythons on their farm say the same thing, they have their hiding place for the day, but at night they are all on the move. some BP breeding farms operate the same way, the pythons need to get their own rhodents, all that the humans do is to provide the right hiding place at the right location and to seperate out and lock up the gravid females for egg laying.

so i dont think they are as sluggish as some of these posts characterize them. they have a hiding place for the day and a hunting area for the night, and they move quite a distance each night, and some exploration has to be involved because they are not born with a hiding place and a hunting ground, they need to figure it out and find the right places.

i dont think they are interested in toys or anything like that, but im sure that when you give a BP more room to roam around it will be appreciated and used by the BP.

[CatandDiallo]

Ball pythons don't go hunting every night.

[KING JAMES]

They go and hunt when they get hungry, and then do nothing till they are hungry again.

[Recreation]

Through the advancement of people we find the solution to the question posed here.

We started off as hunter/gatherers and we as people fulfilled the three basic human needs ; nourishment, clothing, shelter. It was not until we began to domesticate things ( plants and animals ) for our benefit that we had more time and energy to focus on non instinctual things such as a complex language system, knowledge, social structure and the like. This is how we evolved into what we are today. Snakes in the wild do not receive food on a consistent basis, in captivity where the next meal is guaranteed perhaps the conservation of energy is no longer important and they can (as nature suggests) afford to use energy on things other than their basic needs. Perhaps what you are seeing is the first step of many to come for ball pythons, they could eventually become as domesticated as dogs or cats. Science once proved monitor lizards and big reptiles to be non thinking creatures, now we have a crocodile that can swim with a man in Colombia and science explaining that monitor lizards could be the most intelligent reptile. Everything changes and as generations of python evolve adapting to their new environment (captivity) they could be focusing their energy on less instinctual things.


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[Pythonfriend]

Through the advancement of people we find the solution to the question posed here.

We started off as hunter/gatherers and we as people fulfilled the three basic human needs ; nourishment, clothing, shelter. It was not until we began to domesticate things ( plants and animals ) for our benefit that we had more time and energy to focus on non instinctual things such as a complex language system, knowledge, social structure and the like. This is how we evolved into what we are today. Snakes in the wild do not receive food on a consistent basis, in captivity where the next meal is guaranteed perhaps the conservation of energy is no longer important and they can (as nature suggests) afford to use energy on things other than their basic needs. Perhaps what you are seeing is the first step of many to come for ball pythons, they could eventually become as domesticated as dogs or cats. Science once proved monitor lizards and big reptiles to be non thinking creatures, now we have a crocodile that can swim with a man in Colombia and science explaining that monitor lizards could be the most intelligent reptile. Everything changes and as generations of python evolve adapting to their new environment (captivity) they could be focusing their energy on less instinctual things.

Evolution doesnt work that way, and not so fast. the problem is that you have no natural selection going on in captivity (apart from the occasional BP with a weak immune system dieing from RI or something). its all artificial selection. and breeders select mainly for optics, clutch size/fertility, feeding response and to a lesser degree for a tame character. unless breeders start working hard on producing more intelligent BPs, its not going to happen. and in nature, evolution by natural selection works over tens of thousands of years, you do not get the changes you suggest in 50 years or 100 years, as you seem to imply with the crocodile example.

BPs wont evolve the ability to herd rats and to cook them before eating anytime soon. what can be done with artificial selection rather quickly is to get them tame. getting them smarter is a whole different beast.

[Recreation]

You are specifically referring to natural selection, which commonly refers to physical traits. But that is in fact how we as human beings progressed as a species and it was not a physical trait that lead us to develop a complex language system. I am simply implying that the same transformation that humans experienced can happen with ball pythons ( or any species for that matter ). And that what was being viewed now is simply a precursor for what is to come.


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[Pythonfriend]

You are specifically referring to natural selection, which commonly refers to physical traits. But that is in fact how we as human beings progressed as a species and it was not a physical trait that lead us to develop a complex language system. I am simply implying that the same transformation that humans experienced can happen with ball pythons ( or any species for that matter ). And that what was being viewed now is simply a precursor for what is to come.

sure, in 100000 years a lot can happen.

[CptJack]

sure, in 100000 years a lot can happen.

It won't take 10,000 years for changes to be made in the species.

But because of what we're selecting for in captivity? Those changes aren't likely to make a more independent, active, advanced creature. More pretty morphs, better appetites, possibly bigger sizes and tolerance to temperature and humidity variations, yes. A ball python that needs an hour outside its enclosure every day and plays with toys? Yeaaaaah, no.

[Skiploder]

somehow i dont think they just hide all the time and sit around to ambush rhodents.

there is this ball python temple in Benin that a few hundred ball pythons use as a hiding place during the day. and each night they all move out, all of them leave the temple behind and go hunting in the surrounding areas. in the morning they all return. farmers that have ball pythons on their farm say the same thing, they have their hiding place for the day, but at night they are all on the move. some BP breeding farms operate the same way, the pythons need to get their own rhodents, all that the humans do is to provide the right hiding place at the right location and to seperate out and lock up the gravid females for egg laying.

so i dont think they are as sluggish as some of these posts characterize them. they have a hiding place for the day and a hunting area for the night, and they move quite a distance each night, and some exploration has to be involved because they are not born with a hiding place and a hunting ground, they need to figure it out and find the right places.

i dont think they are interested in toys or anything like that, but im sure that when you give a BP more room to roam around it will be appreciated and used by the BP.

Ball pythons are hunters. They climb trees and hunt birds. They hunt on the ground. We ignore science in favor of Youtube clips of people cutting eggs and caresheets outlining what suits OUR needs in terms of husbandry. Then we spread our "Ball Pythons for Dummies" knowledge like a plague.

What you stated in your quote is apostasy. Ball pythons are fragile things that require exact temperature ranges, an exact humidity range and a snug fitting hide. They should not ingest anything but rodent prey fed f/t on a lace doily. Do not give them branches or they will hurt themselves.

The idea that nature created a creature that can survive changes in temperature, changes in humidity, the ingestion of dirt and plant material and eat a somewhat varied diet is inconceivable. The idea that these creatures can tolerate each other given room is laughable. We have espoused a doctrine of husbandry based on what is convenient and economical for us. Anything that is exists outside of what we deem convenient is frowned upon.

Enrichment is a human ideal. If you want to create a habitat for a ball python that allows it to hide, hunt and explore - by all means ignore the forum dogma and do so. You may feel that you are doing the snake a favor. If the snake thrives, then maybe you are.

I can keep a russian tortoise in a large aquarium/tortoise table with the correct heat lamp and feed it the right greens every day.

Or I can keep it in a 8'x16' planted enclosure in the back yard.

In both instances, I am meeting it's needs. In the former, I'm meeting them in a manner convenient to me.

In the latter, I'm meeting them better.