Vote for BP.Net for the 2013 Forum of the Year! Click here for more info.

» Site Navigation

» Home
 > FAQ

» Online Users: 782

1 members and 781 guests
Most users ever online was 47,180, 07-16-2025 at 05:30 PM.

» Today's Birthdays

None

» Stats

Members: 75,904
Threads: 249,099
Posts: 2,572,074
Top Poster: JLC (31,651)
Welcome to our newest member, GeneticArtist

View Poll Results: Are we under-valuing male snakes and over-valuing female snakes?

Voters
21. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    6 28.57%
  • No

    15 71.43%
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 15
  1. #1
    BPnet Veteran Raven01's Avatar
    Join Date
    01-29-2013
    Location
    Peterborough, ON
    Posts
    854
    Thanks
    254
    Thanked 332 Times in 233 Posts
    Images: 2

    Are breeders shooting themselves in the foot?

    A different thread on the pro's and con's of the tendency of some to advocate for "the hard and fast rules" that we use to steer new keepers in the right direction and hopefully help them prevent/avoid any serious difficulties got me thinking about how it also applies to another very common thread topic here.
    Namely, that of prices on new morphs dropping "too quickly".

    After thinking about it I have to say breeders sticking to the "charge more for your females" is directly responsible in part for the speed at which new morph prices drop.
    Look at it this way, which has more value to any breeder interested in getting involved with a new morph?
    A female that may take an extra season to get up to weight and can only produce one clutch with the gene at a time or a male that can breed multiple females and almost always reaches sexual maturity faster?

    Every single male sold can represent multiple clutches each year. Those clutches will be competing with your own on a market that is quickly seeing more snakes available than there are people willing to pay X amount of dollars for.
    While any female sold will have a good chance of taking an extra season to produce only one clutch to compete with your own.

    So, both from a supply and demand view and a value to the purchaser, logically speaking males should be the more valuable snakes.

    I don't expect this will change anything, or that breeders will suddenly change strategies. It is just an idea I am kicking around in light of thoughts on how sometimes we accept ideas without entirely analyzing them critically.

    Well, that is my 2 cents. What are your thoughts on the subject?

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Raven01 For This Useful Post:

    MisterKyte (05-11-2014),sorraia (05-10-2014)

  3. #2
    BPnet Senior Member Archimedes's Avatar
    Join Date
    12-29-2012
    Location
    York, PA
    Posts
    2,073
    Thanks
    922
    Thanked 859 Times in 614 Posts
    Images: 1

    Re: Are breeders shooting themselves in the foot?

    The females do all the hard work. :p

    Nah, in all sincerity, I hadn't thought of it that way before. I do wonder what led the first/big/more proninent breeders to start charging more for females than males. I know, in my breeding plan, I will be paying more for a multigene male than I did for my single-gene female, so that may have something to do with it. The more genes a male has, the more variety per clutch, which evens out to the flat rate you would get for a single or 2-gene female. So, you have the potential to spend the same amounts of money on both a powerhouse male and a reliable female breeder.

    Sent from my ALCATEL ONE TOUCH 5020N using Tapatalk
    1.1 Ball Pythons
    a) Calliope 0.1, Banana Ball, 2018/19 season, 600g
    b) Geralt 1.0 Chocolate Sable Mojave pos. Trick ball, May 27th 2020

    3.2 Cats (Fury, Leviathan, Walter, Chell, Amelie); 2.0 Dogs (Bjorn, Anubis); 2.1 Ferrets (Bran, Tormund, Arya); 0.1 Beardie (Nefertiti); 0.1 Slider Turtle (Species uncertain) (Papaya); 2.0 Hermit Crabs (Tamatoa, Sushi); 0.1 Conure (Mauii); Two Axolotyls (Quetzl and Unnamed); Two Tree Frogs (Pluto and Colossus); One Anole (Zeus); One Crestie (Noferatu); 3.0 Guinea Pigs (Paco, Poncho and Piccolo); 0.1 Pink Toe T (Azula)

    Fish:
    1.1 Oscar Cichlids (Rocky 1.0, hx2020, Red Fire, and Bubble 0.1, hx2019, Tiger), 1.1 Convict Cichlids (Hurley and Sloane), 0.1 Strawberry Peacock Cichlid (Comet), Two Plecos, Rubby the Rubbernose Pleco and Trinidad the common Pleco, 2.0 Upside Down Catfish (Poseidon, Neptune), One Red Parrot Cichlid (Firefly), 1.0 Betta Fish (Jenkins),
    2.2 Cherry Barbs ("The Worst"), 1.0 Electric Blue Acara (Goldeneye)

  4. #3
    BPnet Veteran OctagonGecko729's Avatar
    Join Date
    07-30-2012
    Posts
    694
    Thanks
    593
    Thanked 243 Times in 169 Posts
    Male BPs do go for more then females, you just aren't examining the correct price ranges and timing. Once a morph drops below 1k a lot of its investment value drops with it. People try to buy powerhouse males. People who have 5k to spend on a project aren't going to purchase low end males and high end females.

    I guess what I'm trying to get at is.... Males as a gender are sold for more almost always but males of a particular morph when compared to their female counterpart may or may not be priced higher depending on the current state of the market.
    5.5.13 C. Ciliatus - Specialize in Super Dals
    0.0.1 V. Exanthematicus (Skorge)
    4.4 U. Lineatus
    1.2 N. Amyae
    1.2.2 N. levis levis
    1.0 U. Pietschmanni (Pietsch)
    5.2.2 U. Fimbriatus

    Lots of BPs focusing on Clown stuff in 2014.

    1.0 P. Reticulatus 50% Dwarf Purple Albino het Gen Stripe

    Chris from The Lizard Horde
    www.thelizardhorde.com
    Our Iherp Reptile Collection
    https://www.facebook.com/TheLizardHorde

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to OctagonGecko729 For This Useful Post:

    Raven01 (05-10-2014)

  6. #4
    BPnet Veteran Blue Apple Herps's Avatar
    Join Date
    06-21-2007
    Location
    Denton TX
    Posts
    2,456
    Thanks
    289
    Thanked 529 Times in 387 Posts

    Re: Are breeders shooting themselves in the foot?

    Quote Originally Posted by OctagonGecko729 View Post
    Male BPs do go for more then females, you just aren't examining the correct price ranges and timing. Once a morph drops below 1k a lot of its investment value drops with it. People try to buy powerhouse males. People who have 5k to spend on a project aren't going to purchase low end males and high end females.

    I guess what I'm trying to get at is.... Males as a gender are sold for more almost always but males of a particular morph when compared to their female counterpart may or may not be priced higher depending on the current state of the market.
    I think this is probably it. New co-dom morph males do go for a lot because you can produce more quickly. But once they become more common, the its the females who become valuable b/c you need them to make the supers.

    But I also think the supply of females is probably a little lower, especially over time. Hence price sometimes can get to be more. You only need one male to make a bunch of clutches, but a female can only make one clutch.

    So a breeder may have 3 females for every male. Assuming 50/50 sex ratios, that means there are 2 males out there without a partner, which means excess supply, which means lower prices. I know I hold back just about all of my females (unless I get a funky clutch that is female heavy) so I can raise them up to make the supers.

    So to answer your question, I don't think males are under valued and females are over valued.
    Last edited by Blue Apple Herps; 05-10-2014 at 03:45 PM.

  7. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Blue Apple Herps For This Useful Post:

    Raven01 (05-10-2014),Ridinandreptiles (05-10-2014)

  8. #5
    BPnet Veteran Raven01's Avatar
    Join Date
    01-29-2013
    Location
    Peterborough, ON
    Posts
    854
    Thanks
    254
    Thanked 332 Times in 233 Posts
    Images: 2

    Re: Are breeders shooting themselves in the foot?

    Of course co-dom and recessives would change things up a bit. That would mostly apply to breeding size females though rather than hatchling I would think since she could quickly be bred and then bred back to male offspring.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Of course co-dom and recessives would change things up a bit. That would mostly apply to breeding size females though rather than hatchling I would think since she could quickly be bred and then bred back to male offspring.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Of course co-dom and recessives would change things up a bit. That would mostly apply to breeding size females though rather than hatchling I would think since she could quickly be bred and then bred back to male offspring.

  9. #6
    Registered User
    Join Date
    02-09-2013
    Posts
    2,385
    Thanks
    200
    Thanked 581 Times in 459 Posts
    i see all aspects of this in the market.

    for breeding, you need lots of females and a few males. but they hatch out in a 50/50 ratio. the females produce the eggs and the number of females determines the number of eggs, while a single male can contribute its genetics to lots of clutches.

    so in the powerhouse animals, with new and rare genes or with awesome multi-gene combinations, the males are more expensive. and in morphs and combos that are more common and where the price had time to come down, the females are more expensive.

    basically when a new and expensive morph hits the market, like lets say bamboo, there is demand for everything, but the males will be much more expensive because they allow you to produce more bamboos, and faster. once the price starts coming down and the morph is more available, you start to feel that the market for breeder females is larger than the market for breeder males, and it eventually shifts.
    The Big Bang almost certainly (beyond reasonable doubt) happened 13.7 billion years ago. If you disagree, send me a PM.
    Evolution is a fact, evolutionary theory explains why it happens and provides four different lines of evidence that coalesce to show that evolution is a fact. If you disagree, send me a PM.
    One third of the global economy relies on technology that is based on quantum mechanics, especially quantum electrodynamics (electron-photon or electron-electron interactions). If you disagree, send me a PM.
    Time Dilation is real, it is so real that all clocks if they are precise enough can measure it, and GPS could not possibly work without it.
    If you disagree, send me a PM.

    The 4 philosophically most important aspects of modern science are: Evolutionary theory, Cosmology, Quantum mechanics, and Einsteins theory of general relativity. Understand these to get a grip of reality.

    my favorite music video is online again, its really nice: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oABEGc8Dus0


  10. #7
    BPnet Lifer sho220's Avatar
    Join Date
    05-04-2006
    Location
    Stoolbend, VA
    Posts
    4,924
    Thanks
    615
    Thanked 2,356 Times in 1,377 Posts
    Images: 11

    Re: Are breeders shooting themselves in the foot?

    Quote Originally Posted by OctagonGecko729 View Post
    Male BPs do go for more then females, you just aren't examining the correct price ranges and timing. Once a morph drops below 1k a lot of its investment value drops with it. People try to buy powerhouse males. People who have 5k to spend on a project aren't going to purchase low end males and high end females.

    I guess what I'm trying to get at is.... Males as a gender are sold for more almost always but males of a particular morph when compared to their female counterpart may or may not be priced higher depending on the current state of the market.
    I thought I'd finally gone senile when reading this so I checked out a bunch of ads and breeder websites, and males are almost always listed cheaper than females...
    Lucifer Sam, Siam cat...
    Always sitting by your side,
    Always by your side...
    That cat's something I can't explain...

  11. #8
    BPnet Veteran bigt0006's Avatar
    Join Date
    09-16-2013
    Location
    connecticut
    Posts
    727
    Thanks
    106
    Thanked 145 Times in 114 Posts

    Re: Are breeders shooting themselves in the foot?

    The new codom gene males ive seen are priced higher then the females all the highways ive seen the males cost more then the females

    Sent from my N9100 using Tapatalk 2
    Last edited by bigt0006; 05-10-2014 at 06:17 PM.
    1.1yellow belly
    1.0 desert enchi
    1.0 pastel
    1.0 het russo
    1.0 lemon pastel
    0.1 spider
    2.0 normal

    1.0 striped corn
    0.1.0 normal corn

    1.0 columbian rianbow boa
    1.0 super hypo bci

    0.2 leopard geckos

    0.1.0 water dragon

  12. #9
    BPnet Royalty OhhWatALoser's Avatar
    Join Date
    07-28-2007
    Location
    Suburbs of Detroit
    Posts
    4,986
    Thanks
    530
    Thanked 2,721 Times in 1,477 Posts
    Images: 2

    Re: Are breeders shooting themselves in the foot?

    Quote Originally Posted by sho220 View Post
    I thought I'd finally gone senile when reading this so I checked out a bunch of ads and breeder websites, and males are almost always listed cheaper than females...
    remember when male bananas were listed for 30k and combo females were under 10k?

  13. #10
    BPnet Veteran OctagonGecko729's Avatar
    Join Date
    07-30-2012
    Posts
    694
    Thanks
    593
    Thanked 243 Times in 169 Posts

    Re: Are breeders shooting themselves in the foot?

    Quote Originally Posted by sho220 View Post
    I thought I'd finally gone senile when reading this so I checked out a bunch of ads and breeder websites, and males are almost always listed cheaper than females...
    Yeah, i apologize for the lack of clarification. The message I made was in a hurry which is why it is hard to follow. What I meant was that "investment" males always sell more then females as a gender. An example. I have 10k to invest. I purchase 5 females for 1k each and then a male of 5k. The male that is 5k is more expensive but it is also a different combo then the females in your project. That male may or may not be as expensive as his female counterpart depending on where the market is at that point in time but he will cost more then the females he's breeding.
    5.5.13 C. Ciliatus - Specialize in Super Dals
    0.0.1 V. Exanthematicus (Skorge)
    4.4 U. Lineatus
    1.2 N. Amyae
    1.2.2 N. levis levis
    1.0 U. Pietschmanni (Pietsch)
    5.2.2 U. Fimbriatus

    Lots of BPs focusing on Clown stuff in 2014.

    1.0 P. Reticulatus 50% Dwarf Purple Albino het Gen Stripe

    Chris from The Lizard Horde
    www.thelizardhorde.com
    Our Iherp Reptile Collection
    https://www.facebook.com/TheLizardHorde

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v4.2.1