how to prove a new morph?

[yzguy]

so exactly how much proof, pairing, or generations before something is "Proved"?

[J.P.]

it depends.

dominant - one generation minimum (simply breed to a normal and if any offspring display same phenotype as parent, it's a confirmed morph, but not yet sure if dominant or co-dom)

co-dominant - minimum of 2 generations but may require more (proven co-dom as soon as supers are produced by crossing offspring to parent or offspring to offspring)

recessive- minimum of 2 generations (cross the offspring hets to each other or breed back the hets to the visual parent)

there's exceptions, like rdr's platty daddy. some F1 offsping (lessers) were morphs but did not look like the exact parent (platty daddy). it took more generations to prove that one.

[yzguy]

I have a pair that produced some stripes (best one is my avatar). If the same parents produce more stripes this year, that is not enough? or I have to wait for next year when the boy will be big enough to go back with Mom?

[Pythonfriend]

there is a second component.

even when its genetic, it still needs to reach something like, how shall i put it, "a level above noise level".

full-stripe normals are not that rare or unusual. if its proven genetic and reliably produces certain visual characteristics then its a morph alright. but will anyone be interested when the results dont reach above and beyond what certain normal BPs can look like?

[J.P.]

I have a pair that produced some stripes (best one is my avatar). If the same parents produce more stripes this year, that is not enough? or I have to wait for next year when the boy will be big enough to go back with Mom?

these are laid in 2014? the mom won't produce again this year, that's for sure. it's very likely the male dinker stripe will be mature enough for the 2015 season. but if you really want to prove the genetics, it's not a very good idea to crosss offspring to parent or offspring to offspring. it may be a quick way to recreate the trait, but it will only support the assumption of a genetic trait but won't really prove anything. if you do this you'd know that crossing snake 1 to snake 2 will give you the stripes, but you'll still have no idea what makes it happen. for a trait to be proven genetic, it has to be recreated from the original snake. in this case your striped hatchlings. breed those to normals and try to recreate the stripe, if no stripes appear but some look like the original mom and dad, then hold those back and breed together, maybe you'll get stripes.

another way to go about this is to cross the male parent to a female normal, and female parent to a male normal. hold back babies that look like dad and mom, cross those together, if you get the same striped babies, then you have a proven genetic trait.

i only share what i understand from the account of morph pioneers. they always seem to start by breeding special snakes to normals. never start with breeding a dinker to dinker because it any special result is hard to identify. they only cross morph to morph once there is solid info on the genetics.

[yzguy]

these are laid in 2014? the mom won't produce again this year, that's for sure. it's very likely the male dinker stripe will be mature enough for the 2015 season.

No these were 2013 babies. I put the parents together again this year, but have not gotten eggs yet from the mother (I did see a few locks this year and last year she laid 6/15/2013 ). The male is over 300g now, and next year should be ready. I would think that getting stripes again from the parents would prove that something is going on that is genetic.

but if you really want to prove the genetics, it's not a very good idea to cross offspring to parent or offspring to offspring. it may be a quick way to recreate the trait, but it will only support the assumption of a genetic trait but won't really prove anything.

well it should prove that it is genetic and not just a fluke, true it won't prove exactly what is going on, but really won't waste anything, as I can put the male with a few females, and it could find out if there is some supper form.

for a trait to be proven genetic, it has to be recreated from the original snake.

why wouldn't this include the parents? If they make them again.

in this case your striped hatchlings. breed those to normals and try to recreate the stripe, if no stripes appear but some look like the original mom and dad, then hold those back and breed together, maybe you'll get stripes.
another way to go about this is to cross the male parent to a female normal, and female parent to a male normal. hold back babies that look like dad and mom, cross those together, if you get the same striped babies, then you have a proven genetic trait.

the problem is Mom and Dad don't look special, other than Mom being a YB.
I also did get another YB female to put with dad in the future to see if that pops out stripes (to see if it is dad + YB, or if there is something special about Mom)

but if you really want to prove the genetics, it's not a very good idea to crosss offspring to parent or offspring to offspring.

breed those to normals and try to recreate the stripe, if no stripes appear but some look like the original mom and dad, then hold those back and breed together, maybe you'll get stripes.

am I missing something, or do these 2 statements contradict each other? don't mate the offspring I have now, but do mate the offspring of it's offspring? what is the difference?
(BTW since both mom and dad look normal, I strongly suspect that breeding to a normal will get a bunch of normal looking snakes.)

Also there is no reason I can't breed him back to mom AND breed him to a normal the same year, if I decide to, to see what happens with a normal.