Not thrilled with LLL Reptile.

[Kodieh]

This is now two days from the fact. I'm fairly certain the body is already gone and/ or no longer a candidate for autopsy.

Which is mike's fault too, you know.

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[CD CONSTRICTORS]

Sorry for your experience Mike. I am not posting here to place blame on anyone in this thread- just how I would probably have dealt with the situation given my current collection.

I have also invested a great amount of money, and a lot of time in my collection. For this reason I would have spent whatever the cost on a necropsy to protect my entire collection having to assume the worst case scenario of an unexplained death of a snake in my collection. I have never had an animal die suddenly, or at all for that matter, so I cannot put myself in your shoes. $500 for a necropsy does seem expensive on the surface, but that figure is less than probably 75% of any one bp in my collection, so if I saved even one animal from a potentially deadly disease, that $500 would be money well spent.

I have vetted 2 bp's (both well established for months in my collection after QT).... one an adult 1.0 Clown at 1700g who got an infected scent gland while breeding. Cost me over $500 total in vet bills, traveling 70 miles each way twice to the vet and antibiotics- plus the time to treat him over 2 months with injections of Baytril and then Tazicef. The other was a 1.0 Pied at ~400g who either regurged, or deficated a rat pretty much undigested (it was too hard to tell). He was immediately placed back in QT!! That was a $250+ bill for an exam and fecal smears for parasites and Crypto. I did not figure the Pied had IBD as he did not exhibit any neurological symptoms associated with IBD. All fecal exams were fine and in the end I concluded his temps were a bit low to aid in good digestion, as checking his tub with my IR gun it was 2F lower than other tubs in the same rack?? Don't know why the temp was low in his tub when others in the same V18 rack were fine, but I moved him to one of the warmest slots in the rack after all tests were fine and he ate and pooped normally twice in QT.

Both animals were fine in the end, and my collection was not compromised at all.

I now have Dr. Bogan (a well known local herpetologist) from Gator Land here in FL on call to visit my facility for $150 plus mileage to check my entire collection if needed at any time. I have not had the need to call upon his services, but it is comforting to know he is available to do so. Any treatments would obviously add to the cost, but how can you beat a herpetologist checking your 70+ bp collection for a flat rate $150 plus mileage and a modest hourly rate??

I think your situation is unfortunate, but we all need to be prepared for the worst when something happens to an animal in our collection

[4theSNAKElady]

Sucks Mike...and Florida Kings are such awesome, hearty snakes. I really don't feel that a 90 degree hot spot is necessary for them, but not something that would kill them. Not sure if LLL breeds their Fla Kings, but they do buy and resell in high volume. That nature of business(I'm not saying it's bad business) lends itself to this kind of thing happening on occasion...which is why they have the standard pet shop 24 hour policy on reptiles. Disappointing to lose the snake so soon, but they did go above and beyond their own terms to offer you a discount on a future purchase. The business side of dealing with live animals is not always pretty or satisfying to all parties involved, but it is business. And the again, sometimes the animals do just die suddenly with no explanation.

Out of curiosity, what, if any resolution to your issue were you seeking?

Standard pet shop 24 hour policy??? Idk about other pet shops, but MY pet store guarantees our snakes for 14 days. And i believe it is the same for Petco.

sent from my incubator

[4theSNAKElady]

It's called "hedging bets".

You gotta try really hard to kill a king snake. I'm not buying that it was a husbandry error. This wasn't some newbie greenhorn that bought this animal.
.

110% agree with Skip on this. Ive kept several species of kings over the years, and theyve got to be be some of the hardiest snakes out there.

sent from my incubator

[GeekAndDestroy]

Standard pet shop 24 hour policy??? Idk about other pet shops, but MY pet store guarantees our snakes for 14 days. And i believe it is the same for Petco.

sent from my incubator

Many states have a pet lemon law requiring a 14 day health gaurantee. However, I could only find legislation specific to cats and dogs in CA (where LLL is), and not much on reptiles.

[Skiploder]

Many states have a pet lemon law requiring a 14 day health gaurantee. However, I could only find legislation specific to cats and dogs in CA (where LLL is), and not much on reptiles.

Their policy is their policy.

What they fail to grasp is that there is a trail of these incidents happening with their animals. Is it every animal? No but it's enough that anyone researching them is going to have doubts.

Such is the life of a reptile vendor who buys clutches from other people and then flips them. There are inherent risks with this model of business.

Whatever. Almost 2000 people have read this thread. How many of those will be people who will remember this thread and stay away from LLL? They need to make this right. A touchy feely email that infers that Mike can't keep a pet rock alive isn't going to cut it.

[CD CONSTRICTORS]

I don't know of any flipper that is going to put much of a health guarantee on their animals.....

I am more than willing to pay more than average market for snakes from very few sources I trust.

I'm not risking my collection on animals from known flippers as QT is nearly impossible and the turnover can barely be tracked if a problem arose.

Buyer obviously beware.

[MarkS]

I'm sorry to butt in but I've been reading and what is a flipper? Lol

A flipper is someone who buys snakes from one party with the intention of reselling them. It's often used as a pejorative term.

Personally I find the current negative attitude towards 'flippers' to be puzzling. Every single pet store since the beginning of pet stores is a flipper. There isn't a pet store anywhere that I've ever heard of that breeds all of the animals that they sell. Petco is a flipper, Petsmart is a flipper, that Mom and Pop pet store down on the corner that has been in business for 50 years is a flipper.

I'd be willing to bet that most of the people that are currently in this hobby first became exposed to it because they saw a snake for sale in a pet store.

The REAL issue here is NOT whether or not LLLReptile is a flipper, they're a pet store, of course they are. The real question here is whether or not they have a pattern of reselling snakes that may be sick. And THAT is the issue that needs to be addressed. Pointing fingers at them and shouting 'FLIPPER' like it's some kind of swear word does nobody any good and just clouds the real issue. At least in my opinion.

[satomi325]

I don't understand why this thread got so out of hand.

Mike's only intention was to give a review of his purchase and experience. He has already stated that he understands that he won't be getting a refund, which is the only compensation he will accept. Nor does he want a replacement from LLL. I personally think he should get a full refund, but since LLL won't refund him, what else is he suppose to do? I don't blame him for not wanting a replacement animal from their stock. I wouldn't want another animal from them based on that experience and the potential factor of that replacement is carrying the same "something" that could potentially leads to a similar fate of the original king.

If LLL will not refund, but only replace the animal. Then I suggest LLL to purchase Mike a replacement king of his choice and equal value from a seller of his choice.
While I understand why they do it, the 24hr policy is still ridiculous imo.

[Skiploder]

A flipper is someone who buys snakes from one party with the intention of reselling them. It's often used as a pejorative term.

Personally I find the current negative attitude towards 'flippers' to be puzzling. Every single pet store since the beginning of pet stores is a flipper. There isn't a pet store anywhere that I've ever heard of that breeds all of the animals that they sell. Petco is a flipper, Petsmart is a flipper, that Mom and Pop pet store down on the corner that has been in business for 50 years is a flipper.

I'd be willing to bet that most of the people that are currently in this hobby first became exposed to it because they saw a snake for sale in a pet store.

The REAL issue here is NOT whether or not LLLReptile is a flipper, they're a pet store, of course they are. The real question here is whether or not they have a pattern of reselling snakes that may be sick. And THAT is the issue that needs to be addressed. Pointing fingers at them and shouting 'FLIPPER' like it's some kind of swear word does nobody any good and just clouds the real issue. At least in my opinion.

When you are dealing with the volume of animals that LLL does, then buying whole clutches, not putting them through proper QT, mixing them in with the rest of the stock and then selling them is in essence creating a giant petri dish. That's why when you dig into them a bit you, find the trail of health issues.

Is flipper a bad word? If animals are being brought in, properly acclimated and put through a basic QT or preventative treatment regimen - then no, it's not.

If you however are buying a clutch of boas on Friday, advertising them on Fauna and Kingsnake on Monday. Not waiting to see if they feed, not waiting to keep them long enough to be able to accurately assess their health - then yes.

When you are advertising on Kingsnake and Fauna that you are buying whole clutches from anybody that will sell them to you low enough - then yes, you are a baaaaaaaaaaaaad flipper. When you are a retailer that has a series of trusted suppliers that sell you properly raised and acclimated animals - then you are not.

Case in point - a local reptile store where I live buys animals from myself, Robert Seib, Doug Price, Steve Angeli, etc. They do not put blanket adds out in reptile classifieds asking any schlub who has a clutch of snakes if they want to offload them. In my opinion, Mark, there's a BIG difference.