Ultra-complicated Designer Morphs?

[Spektyr]

This is kind of a multipart question, but the crux of it is "what happens if/when you combine a truly insane number of morphs?"

I'm talking about 5, 6, 7+ different morphs in the same snake. Has anyone done this? Does/would it look good?

Obviously trying to get multiple homozygous traits in the same snake would be either a massive undertaking or an unbelievable stroke of luck, and very difficult to gauge the success of anyway. Consider a pair of snakes with four het co-dominant traits... how would you know whether an offspring was triple super or quadruple super if no one's done either of those before, and would there even be a visible distinction?

Or am I just wrong?


Anyway, I'm just curious, the most complicated morph I'll have in the remotey near future is a Bumblebee Mojave. Daydreaming about possibilities got me to thinking, "what if you got every morph in the same snake? What would that look like?" I've seen some spectacular looking morphs that were 3 and 4 morph combos but I suspect that going too complicated would start working against you in terms of making pretty snakes.

What's the most "complicated" designer morph to date? Has someone "gone too far" and gotten a ugly snake or just not gotten a snake that's any better than a simpler combination of its morph list?

It's fun to daydream about being the first to breed a morph that always appears to be coiled in a glorious ray of sunshine and accompanied by angelic chorus, but I'm curious how the reality plays out on things like this.

[Pythonfriend]

there are many BPs out there with somewhere around 6 to 8 morphs inside.

somehow they often do not look that impressive.

but then, some highly advanced multi-gene combos do look awesome. i count heterozygous for a morph gene as one, and homozygous as two. often they do look washed out, or the pattern does not survive, but some are awesome.

one breeder comes to mind: NERD. Kevin mccurley. here is one of the 6 hit BPs he produced, just as an example: http://www.worldofballpythons.com/mo...pastel-spider/ its 5 genes, but one is a super form (super yellowbelly = ivory), so i count 6 hits.

or here you have a coral glow + granite + hidden gene woma + mojave + pastel + super enchi: http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/bubble-gum/ keep in mind its a super enchi. coral glow disrupts the color, and the other morphs do their thing. i count 7 hits, and 6 genes.

often it washes out, all turns into a blur, but not if its the right combination. i think once you reach these high numbers of genes, you really need to worry about what works best with what. i am, for example, quite sure that some of the combos we know would profit from adding another 4 hits, in the form of super enchi super orange dream.

but i second the question: what is the PROVEN (in the sense of accepted, believable) highest number right now? according to my count. so a visual recessive counts as two, a super form counts as two, anything heterozygous counts as one (dominant, codominant, or het for something). meaning i count a super pewter as 4, and i would also count an axanthic clown as 4, and a super enchi super pastel would also be at 4. how high does it go right now? consider that its quite established that its up to 7. so its about numbers higher than 7.

[OhhWatALoser]

This is kind of a multipart question, but the crux of it is "what happens if/when you combine a truly insane number of morphs?" I'm not quite sure how to answer this, you have a very expensive snake?

I'm talking about 5, 6, 7+ different morphs in the same snake. Has anyone done this? Does/would it look good? NERD,BHB, and quite a few others have 5+ snakes, most look good imo, some not so much.

Consider a pair of snakes with four het co-dominant traits... how would you know whether an offspring was triple super or quadruple super if no one's done either of those before, and would there even be a visible distinction? You have to compare what you made to whats been already done and make your best guess, the more morphs you add the more variable the snake can get, so it would depends on the morphs.

Or am I just wrong? about asking quiestions?

What's the most "complicated" designer morph to date? Has someone "gone too far" and gotten a ugly snake or just not gotten a snake that's any better than a simpler combination of its morph list?I would think NERD would have the most genes in one snake, but he is basically guessing at what they are in the first place, until breeding would prove it out to be what he thinks. It doesn't really matter the amount. a simple enchi/sable looks like a crap imo, just depends on what you throw in there

You are taking something that is extremely variable and wanting to generalize it. In an attempt to generalize it, I will say most morphs tend to take away color in some way. So I would imagine many roads will lead to a white/off white snake. But I would have to imagine the super pastel/fire/congo/super enchi/super orange dream/desert/hypo/clown to be a hot a snake, but who knows until someone does it.

[Pythonfriend]

just one idea i have to throw in:

keeping good records is INVALUABLE. if you buy a high-end BP that has lots of genetics in it, you need pictures of the parents, and genetic information on the grandparents, if not pictures of the grandparents.

if people just swap these around, it ends in chaos. proper records reveal everything, good records reveal where which gene came from and how they assembled and combined. how else could you possibly figure out a BP like this, if it changes hands? without records, it would take years to take one of these 7-gene behemoths apart and to figure out what really is inside it.

in horse breeding or dog breeding, you often have ancestry going back 6 generations or more, with solid records of ancestry involving 100 or more parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, and so on. and when things get confusing, you check these records, and you have data that may be helpful. compared to that, ball pythons are being traded like a loaf of bread. as if you would buy it, consume it, and be done with it. as if the history would not matter, and would not carry on into future generations.

and how are you supposed to even attempt to avoid inbreeding when there are no records?

[OhhWatALoser]

Horses and dogs seldom deal with monogenetic traits, basically they are breed for multiple polygenetic traits and when some of those traits don't show up for many years, then records like that are very useful and give a piece of mind. Ball pythons are just the opposite, almost all concern is monogenetic traits, so the trait is passed or it's not, generations before hand don't matter. Also, reptiles are very different and do not appear to carry nearly as many negative traits as many mammals, so inbreeding is a non-issue most of the time. Sure there are people who breed for polygenetic traits and some are against inbreeding, but that is not a majority of the hobby, so thats why it is, what it is.

[Spektyr]

Great info, thanks!

I plan to keep as detailed records as I can. Even if it isn't so important purely for tracing genetics, I think it speaks to the credibility and responsibility of the breeder. If he/she will take the time to keep good records, that indicates greater professionalism. Of course it doesn't guarantee it, but you know what I mean.

[RandyRemington]

This is neither complicated nor anywhere near what others have done but I actually have a point. Basically that if a putts like me can accident hit a four gene (chocolate pastel spider yellowbelly) that he wasn't even trying for and have it turn out pretty nice the limit on complicated but still possible and still nice looking is probably pretty far out there.



PS: I ended up having to sell her so not sure what she looks like all grown up.

[Darkbird]

I'm still a newb, but I will say I have seen pictures of a lot of what I'll call super-multi gene animals that simply didn't make an impression. Not that there aren't a few stunning 5+ gene combos, but to menwhen it get to the point you can't readily tell what you have it starts to defeat the purpose a bit.

[paulh]

This is kind of a multipart question, but the crux of it is "what happens if/when you combine a truly insane number of morphs?"

I'm talking about 5, 6, 7+ different morphs in the same snake. Has anyone done this? Does/would it look good?

Good question.

It has probably been done in ball pythons. It has definitely been done in a number of species, such as dogs, pigeons, cattle, mice, etc. I've gotten five in ringneck doves.

Does a Bassett Hound look good? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Your mileage may vary.

[200xth]

What's the most "complicated" designer morph to date? Has someone "gone too far" and gotten a ugly snake or just not gotten a snake that's any better than a simpler combination of its morph list?

In my opinion, I think there's plenty of examples of 5 gene snakes that look mediocre at best and there's some simply stunning 2 gene combos that look far better.

Personal opinion, I guess.

In the end, breeders will crave the powerhouses because it gives them more versatility in breeding, and people who keep strictly as pets will buy the ones they like the look of...whether it be a simple, single gene enchi that catches their eye or a 4 gene combo that has a killer combo of pattern and color.