Question about ears / eyes on dumbo pups

[artgecko]

Hey guys,

I'm picking up my pups tomorrow and was wondering if you had any tips on picking out pups that would have good looking ears / eyes and heads as adults? All in the litter are blues and all are dumbos, so I'm mainly selecting for temperament, health, then physical traits like eyes, ears, etc. The only problem is, I haven't seen many examples of "good" ears / eyes on small pups, just adult pics. I found one site with pics of ear types on adults. Of those pictured, I guess I prefer the "open tulip" style ears. Would these look the same on 4 week old pups?

If you have any advice or pics that would help, I'd greatly appreciate it. As there are no breeders in my area, this may be my only shot at getting females for a while so I'd like to do a good job selecting them.

Thanks again for your help and advice!

[sorraia]

Depending on the age of the pups, it can be tricky. When I was breeding strictly for pet/show, I found the best age to judge pups was at 3 weeks of age, then again at 12 weeks of age. In between those times they went through awkward stages where nothing was proportional or fit right.

Dumbos are tricky because the shape of their ears gives their head a different appearance. Are you looking to actually breed to show standard? If so, you want to be very careful to avoid "banana nose", also known as a Roman or convex nose. Look instead for a wedge shaped head that forms an equilateral triangle when viewed from above. Since pups go through an awkward stage, look for the shortest nose you can get, that will even out as they grow, whereas a long nose will probably just stay long. Show quality ears are open, flat and round. The tulip ears are actually discouraged in show standard, as are pointed or "elf" ears and of course small "teddy bear" ears. Watch the eyes too. There's been a tendency for dumbo to end up with small eyes. Look for large, bright, round eyes, the largest and roundest you can select.

If you aren't actually breeding to show standard, then none of this really matters too much, just select what you like best over all.

[artgecko]

Thanks for the info!
The site I linked (NFRS) said that they are considering standardizing the tulip ears.. apparently they are more popular with breeders than the saucer ears. I am not going to show.. No one breeds for show in my area and doing so would mean driving a couple states away at least. That said, I like the look of the rats bred for show, so I don't have a problem aiming for that goal. although temperament and health are goal number one for me, I would also like it if my rats looked different than pet store rats.

I will definitely take your advice about the head shape... I do prefer blocky heads and large eyes. The only dumbo ears I dislike are the "elf" or otherwise weird folded ears. I must have read incorrectly because I thought that roman noses were encouraged and that long snipey / mouse-like noses were the only ones not wanted, but that is good information to know.

I went to see the babies last week (at 3 weeks) it's too bad I didn't know what to look for then. :p Of course, me being a total newb, I didn't even know how to sex them at that age either. I've done some more reading and am hoping I can at least get that part right when we get them tomorrow.

Thanks again for the great information and advice!

[sorraia]

At least when I was breeding pet/show, the roman nose was discouraged. But perhaps like the ears, maybe that's changed. The NFRS is based in the UK. In the US I know AFRMA is still active, and as far as I'm aware they still judge against the tulip ears. There might be a couple other active clubs in the states, but I don't really know any more. That's one thing about the standards, each club kind of makes up their own.

While you go about your project, take notes on EVERYTHING. And photos if possible. That way you have something you can go back and refer to as you learn. If you keep notes, records, and photos of your litters, including which babies you keep, you can also keep track of progress you make. Most physical traits are polygenic, as opposed to the simple single genes that control most colors (yes, you can combined color genes to make more combinations, but most colors are created by single simple genes). This makes physical traits a little hard to select for, and it takes a little longer to get the trait cemented in, but it is possible. The key is picking the best of the best. Don't even try to "even" things out, for example picking a very short nose and a very long nose and breeding them together to get "just right". It usually doesn't work that nicely. Instead, select two of the best noses (or whatever trait) you can, and breed those. Then from that litter, select the best and breed back to the best (even if it means breeding to a relative). Keep track of what's produced, and learn from your mistakes. You will make mistakes, we all do. Learn from it, improve the next time, and move on.

I'll have to see if I have any baby pictures uploaded that I can share to give some examples of what to look for.

[artgecko]

Thanks so much for your advice! I plan on holding onto the babies I'm getting for about 9 months before I attempt breeding, so hopefully I can upload pics and let you give input on them, etc.

I'm very OCD, so hopefully record keeping will come easy for me. I know it's been quite handy with my snakes (ie correlating weights to feeding records, sheds, etc.).

I'm very much looking forward to this new venture and am grateful for any information you share.

Thanks again for your advice!

[sorraia]

Thanks so much for your advice! I plan on holding onto the babies I'm getting for about 9 months before I attempt breeding, so hopefully I can upload pics and let you give input on them, etc.

I'm very OCD, so hopefully record keeping will come easy for me. I know it's been quite handy with my snakes (ie correlating weights to feeding records, sheds, etc.).

I'm very much looking forward to this new venture and am grateful for any information you share.

Thanks again for your advice!

No problem, glad i can help! There's others on the forum who can help out too.

It's harder when you can't see the real thing in person, but you will learn with time. Pictures can be tricky, because camera angle, lighting, etc can create illusions. For example, I know (because i've had enough practice) how to make a long ugly head look perfect with just the right camera angle. But this is why multiple angles and positions are good too, so you can really get a feel for what you actually have. Pictures also won't capture how the animal moves and how it feels (which will also tell you something about how it is built), but it is better than nothing, and the only visual record we can keep forever. If you can sketch out what you see, that can help as well.

[sorraia]

I do have a few photos I can share. These babies are various ages (I'd have to look up the old records and compare to the date on the photo to remember exactly, but I'd estimate around 6-8 weeks of age).

Decent head and eyes, ears a touch small but good shape (standard):


Long, flat head (see no "stop" above the eyes), decent eyes, decent ears (standard):


Fabulous head, good eyes, decent ears (standard, a touch small):


Decent head, a little flat, decent eyes, decent ears (dumbo, slightly tulip but not too bad, he actually got better as he matured):


Same rats, same order, but grown up a little more:




(Not the best adult picture, but best I have uploaded.)


(his coloring improved after this picture too, he turned out to actually be a genetic chocolate-point Siamese, not your typical seal-point Siamese.)

[artgecko]

Thanks so much for the info and pics! Once I've got the babies settled in (probably by Tuesday) I'll try to take pics and load them to show you guys what I came home with. Since they're all from the same litter I'm not expecting a load of variety, but I'll hopefully have some options bringing home 5.

[Rhasputin]

Fun bit of info, dumbo is caused by a minor skull deformity, which is why it affects the look of the eyes on the rat as well as the ears.
Dumbo in mice, was very unstable, and caused a lot more problems (though minor) from the few specimens I have seen, to be viable as a variety.

[artgecko]

OK, these will probably be the worst baby rat pics you've ever seen, but I tried to get at least one pic of each baby. The tiny guys wouldn't hold still. We had less to choose from than I thought. Apparently there were others interested and got to the store an hour before we did and got 4 of the babies..Including the two females I originally wanted. We ended up with 3f / 1m... They only had 1 male left. Overall their heads look long and eyes are small. Ears were all "tulip" and some look pointed (almost like top ears but slightly lower..especially the berkshire girl). Luckily, I think the male has the best head shape (but small eyes) and he seems to have a very chill temperament. I'll post the two pics of the male first, then the 2 female hoodeds, then the berkshire girl. Sorry for the huge pic links. I really need to learn how to resize them.

One question.. If you can give me an idea of age that would be great... The lady I dealt with apparently doesn't know as much about them as I thought. She said they'd be 4 weeks this Saturday, then today said they were more like 3.5 weeks... In either case, I'm planning on housing the lone male with his sisters for another week or so. Hoping he'll still be too young to impregnate them for at least that long. We are going back to the store next Tuesday (when they get more rats in) in hopes that they'll have a similarly sized male to keep him cmpany before we introduce him to our current males. I've been told they have to be 8 weeks to intro safely.



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