Anxanthic snakes

[Pythonfriend]

which lines are compatible with VPI?

maybe the way to go would be to get good examples of VPI, SK and Joliff and MJ and then just breed them and pick the best of the best babies as holdbacks. of course that only works if they are compatible.

basically the good old line-breeding game: select excellent examples to start out with, breed, produce a lot, hold back the best you get, and so on. with hypo, people mix regular/unbranded hypo with named lines all the time, and it has advanced to a degree that you can asks for a specific line if it will be compatible with regular hypo. and the question makes sense and you get an answer.

how is it with axanthic? are there mixed axanthics, with different lines in them, or something you could call regular axanthic?

[Crazymonkee]

As far as I know none of the lines are compatible

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[OhhWatALoser]

I don't know about mj, but the main 3 are not compatible with each other.

[Raven01]

which lines are compatible with VPI?

maybe the way to go would be to get good examples of VPI, SK and Joliff and MJ and then just breed them and pick the best of the best babies as holdbacks. of course that only works if they are compatible.

basically the good old line-breeding game: select excellent examples to start out with, breed, produce a lot, hold back the best you get, and so on. with hypo, people mix regular/unbranded hypo with named lines all the time, and it has advanced to a degree that you can asks for a specific line if it will be compatible with regular hypo. and the question makes sense and you get an answer.

how is it with axanthic? are there mixed axanthics, with different lines in them, or something you could call regular axanthic?

VPI has 2 lines.
The standard well known VPI Axanthic and the VPI Black Axanthic (which is not supposed to brown out with age, much like the MJ line which is why I asked if anyone had bred to check the compatibility of those 2 lines).
I've only personally seen VPI, TSK and MJ, the others only photos. Of those snakes I've seen I have found good snakes in both VPI and TSK lines that were very good examples of an axanthic morph and in both lines some very brown examples. I have yet to see a brown MJ or a photo even of a brown VPI Black Axanthic(but these haven't been around that long so not a ton of people have grown out examples).

I'm pretty sure VPI, TSK and MJ lines are all non-compatible. You do have a point about line breeding, animals with strong blacks, and little brown (in non-axanthic these should be the brighter yellow animals) would lend themselves well to that project. Infact, this is just a guess but, I would think that attention to this detail is responsible for the better examples of VPI and TSK I have seen and lack of attention is a contributing factor to the less than stellar examples.

[Brandon Osborne]

I have found the exact opposite. I have yet to see an MJ that didn't look like most normals.....being very brown. The reason the VPI line is most popular and well known is because they tend to look the best as adults. MJ axanthics are not readily available because most people do not find them appealing. I am only going on what I have seen and what other breeders say. Again, I have had both SK and VPI(currently), and the VPI is better in my opinion. I got my SK directly from Dan and they were breeders they sold off because of combo holdbacks...so to say the least, they were as nice as it comes with the SK line. Any way you look at it, the debate will continue for eternity.lol. Just pick the line you like best.

[Raven01]

I have found the exact opposite. I have yet to see an MJ that didn't look like most normals.....being very brown. The reason the VPI line is most popular and well known is because they tend to look the best as adults. MJ axanthics are not readily available because most people do not find them appealing. I am only going on what I have seen and what other breeders say. Again, I have had both SK and VPI(currently), and the VPI is better in my opinion. I got my SK directly from Dan and they were breeders they sold off because of combo holdbacks...so to say the least, they were as nice as it comes with the SK line. Any way you look at it, the debate will continue for eternity.lol. Just pick the line you like best.

Then in all honesty, I do not think you have ever seen an MJ Axanthic.
I live 20 minutes from Mark Mandic(the originator of MJ Axanthics and, have seen his snakes on several occasions and have yet to see any or any that others have purchased from him brown out), I've asked him specifically about this issue.
Granted they are less common so there are fewer examples to compare but, even when not mixed with "cleaner" genes all that I have seen have held colour very well.

And, I will say I have seen some very nice TSK line snakes but, I have seen more nice VPI's. And, I've seen some pretty bad examples of both. I believe (but this is just a hypothesis not anything proven in any manner) that attention to detail may have been responsible for the good examples in both lines.

[Bowlshot]

Thanks guys for all the replies. As of right now I think I'm going to do some more research on this looking at adult and baby pics of each and go from there. You guys have beautiful snakes I appreciate all of the help.Thanks again.

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[Pythonfriend]

thanks for the replies

but its not really what i expected. so when you breed two different lines together, you only get normal-looking double hets. and you could go for double recessives. and axanthics that are not durther identified, like rescues, are basically just an enormous gamble.

its a bit strange, because albinos have some chance to just pop up randomly, and then they are all compatible, because its basically just one broken gene. and isnt axanthic supposed to be when the ability to make yellow/brown is broken? it doesnt really follow the pattern, compared to other species or compared to albino. maybe thats why they all brown out: BPs just have several ways to make yellow or brown color, and knocking out just one method to produce yellow/brown is not enough.

that leads to an obvious question: if the lines are really incompatible, and all suffer from some browning out, what about double recessives?

[OhhWatALoser]

It just comes down to what the gene at a certain locus saying to do, compared to everything else also trying do something. There could potentially be hundreds of loci that can say reduce yellow pigment and we only have a handful of mutated genes to do that. The 3 lines appear to be at different loci, but basically all say the same thing. Even if they do act a little differently, abino and lav albino still get rid of the black pigment. There is still a potential there are more loci that can do the same thing as albino or lav albino, we just haven't discovered them yet or someone didn't think it was worth pursuing.

I don't think the double recessive axanthic would change much personally, the browning out we see is a natural ball python thing, normals brown out as they grow up, its more extreme to see the browning out in pastels just because they are yellow instead of already a shade of brown. Imo pastel actually does reduce the browning out a little bit, but its just so much more than compared to normal that we don't see it that way. We do have a handful of genes which reverse that though, like fire, which is why fire axanthics are so good looking even as adults, but then firefly axanthics look even better.

Also with the double recessive, besides people fearing a dead end project, there is also the annoyance of producing unknown lines of axanthic. Which I doubt anyone would buy at this point, so you are stuck with them, on top of never knowing what the 1/16 double recessive looks like. Now is there a chance it turns out to be something awesome... sure, but I think most would agree it is unlikely.

[RandyRemington]

I would agree, lots of risks to trying a double homozygous axanthic project. And even if you ever did get one and confirmed it after years of breeding where would you go from there? If you crossed it with another mutation you would be starting over. Would still love to see it just in case it produced the holy grail axanthic phenotype but guess it's not likely to be tried or prove out extra nice.