Do you use live or f/t food?

[PitOnTheProwl]

110% LIVE

All reasons already listed.
When we had less than 5 snakes f/t was okay but still a pain.
Now with over 25 snakes live is so much easier and no wasted bodies.
I still have yet to see why people claim "safety" for f/t?
Yes snakes have been bit while feeding in captivity AND in the wild.
All of the horrific accidents are 90% keeper error, let them be snakes and do their thing because its in their DNA.
Keep in mind that rodents can get board too so its just a time thing.

[Crazymonkee]

Live here, especially after my picky female. Easier, and I don't like wasting money on non eaten feeders. Also hate the whole thawing and heating thing

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[sunshinenorcas]

let them be snakes and do their thing because its in their DNA.

By that logic, why use incubators for eggs? Maternal incubation is what they do and they've been using it for thousands of years.
There is so much that is not seen in nature (the tubs, the substrates, incubator, quad gene animals) that its just a little bizarre that live feeding is generally the thing where I see people being "ITS NATURAL AND WHAT THEY DO AND WHAT THEY'VE BEEN DOING FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS"

Live feed all you want- I can see the benefits, but since I have only have two, f/t works better for me and both girls eat very happily on f/t, and they are eating I'm happy. I'd do live if I needed too, but it'd more of a pain... I like being able to go to the store and pick up 2 months worth of food in one go. Couldn't do that with live.

(And the mini rant wasn't directed at you, just in general- I've seen that logic a few times, yours was just one on this thread )


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[anatess]

Live here.

I raise ASFs. The parents are my pets. They're less stinkier than hamsters and are as cute. The children get separated by gender and get to live as a community with toys and stuff. My husband/kids will take 6 of them a week to feed the snakes. The cool thing about this is when the snakes go on fasts - like they oftentimes do - the ASFs get to jump for joy and play with their toys a few extra weeks. Frozen rats don't get this luxury.

But, even if I somehow quit raising ASFs, I would still do live. Why? Because I trust my snakes to know what to do more than I trust myself. I will always wonder if the rats are thawed properly or if it will be too cold or too hot or if I ended up cooking the rats which would end up hurting my snakes. I trust the snake's instincts better in knowing how to eat a rat properly. Of course, to mitigate the risk, I practice good feeding methods by feeding the appropriate sized rat, feeding a well-feed/well-hydrated rat, and monitoring feeding and promptly taking out uneaten prey.

What I don't understand is people thinking it is "cruel" to feed live rats to snakes (like in the UK culture) but it is not cruel to kill a rat put it in a baggie and freeze it for later. And the same people also don't think it's cruel to put rat traps in their houses.

And another note on the UK legality of live feeders - it is not illegal but it is discouraged and culturally looked down upon. The following snippet comes directly from the British Parliament documented Parliamentary debates under 1911 Act: "This practice is currently legal so long as not practiced in a public place. There has always been confusion over the legality of this practice as no regulation directly relating to this has ever been decreed. Many millions of rodents are destroyed every year by break back traps and poison, compared to these methods the kill by a snake is swift and efficient."

The UK law that could potentially be used against live feeders is the fighting clause of 1911 Act, that is, putting a live rat together with a live snake for the purpose of fighting (similar to dog fighting or rooster fighting) is illegal. But the document linked above has this to say about it: "Whilst we absolutely do not want to encourage live feeding, we think we need some clarity as to whether that is going to be made illegal under this clause of fighting. Our concerns are, because of Clause 3(iv)(c), the need to be able to exhibit normal behavior patterns, that snakes in the wild feed on life prey, there are no carrion feeding snakes, so that would mean we are not going to be able to feed them frozen food; we are going to have to feed them live mice, and equally we would be opposed to having to introduce that."

That document is a really interesting read.

[anatess]

By that logic, why use incubators for eggs? Maternal incubation is what they do and they've been using it for thousands of years.
There is so much that is not seen in nature (the tubs, the substrates, incubator, quad gene animals) that its just a little bizarre that live feeding is generally the thing where I see people being "ITS NATURAL AND WHAT THEY DO AND WHAT THEY'VE BEEN DOING FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS"

Live feed all you want- I can see the benefits, but since I have only have two, f/t works better for me and both girls eat very happily on f/t, and they are eating I'm happy. I'd do live if I needed too, but it'd more of a pain... I like being able to go to the store and pick up 2 months worth of food in one go. Couldn't do that with live.

(And the mini rant wasn't directed at you, just in general- I've seen that logic a few times, yours was just one on this thread )


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There are two methods of raising pets - be it a dog, bird, fish, or snake: 1.) You control as much as possible and only allow the pet to control what you yourself can't. 2.) Allow the pet to control as much as possible and only control if there is unacceptable risk to the pet.

For example: I maternally incubate. That is because I trust my snake to know exactly what the eggs need more than I know if the eggs have the proper temp and humidity. Same reason for feeding live rodent. I trust the snake to know how to eat a rat than me knowing if the rat is thawed properly. Also, I provide a temperature gradient and trust the snake to know how much heat it needs. But, I keep the snakes in locked down enclosures because I trust that I know that it is safer for the snakes never to get out of their enclosures than the snakes knowing that it is safer for them in the enclosure than outside of it. So, I'm smack dab in Method #2 above. Others are smack dab in #1 - especially the breeders who are super experts on this thing and can't afford to leave some things to chance. There are others that are on Method #2 but believe that live feeding is just as risky if not less risky than F/T feeding and maternal incubation is an unacceptable risk for the health of both mother and eggs.

Make sense?

[AlexisFitzy]

This is something I've always wondered when it comes to the live vs f/t debate. Is it really faster to feed live than f/t? Because if you breed your own rats it takes time to take care of the colony so I think that would be the equivalent to thawing out feeders since both take work but raising rats is a lot more work. And when you just drop in the larger feeders (smalls and mediums) I've heard that people keep pencils next to the enclosure incase of a bad strike or just a feisty feeder. So monitoring a feeding with feeders that could potentially injure your snake links up to the zombie dance time right? Maybe I'm wrong about this but I'd like some feed back on this. Has anyone else ever thought of it this way? I'm weird when it comes to these things.


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[4theSNAKElady]

Live here.

I raise ASFs. The parents are my pets. They're less stinkier than hamsters and are as cute. The children get separated by gender and get to live as a community with toys and stuff. My husband/kids will take 6 of them a week to feed the snakes. The cool thing about this is when the snakes go on fasts - like they oftentimes do - the ASFs get to jump for joy and play with their toys a few extra weeks. Frozen rats don't get this luxury.

But, even if I somehow quit raising ASFs, I would still do live. Why? Because I trust my snakes to know what to do more than I trust myself. I will always wonder if the rats are thawed properly or if it will be too cold or too hot or if I ended up cooking the rats which would end up hurting my snakes. I trust the snake's instincts better in knowing how to eat a rat properly. Of course, to mitigate the risk, I practice good feeding methods by feeding the appropriate sized rat, feeding a well-feed/well-hydrated rat, and monitoring feeding and promptly taking out uneaten prey.

What I don't understand is people thinking it is "cruel" to feed live rats to snakes (like in the UK culture) but it is not cruel to kill a rat put it in a baggie and freeze it for later. And the same people also don't think it's cruel to put rat traps in their houses.

And another note on the UK legality of live feeders - it is not illegal but it is discouraged and culturally looked down upon. The following snippet comes directly from the British Parliament documented Parliamentary debates under 1911 Act: "This practice is currently legal so long as not practiced in a public place. There has always been confusion over the legality of this practice as no regulation directly relating to this has ever been decreed. Many millions of rodents are destroyed every year by break back traps and poison, compared to these methods the kill by a snake is swift and efficient."

The UK law that could potentially be used against live feeders is the fighting clause of 1911 Act, that is, putting a live rat together with a live snake for the purpose of fighting (similar to dog fighting or rooster fighting) is illegal. But the document linked above has this to say about it: "Whilst we absolutely do not want to encourage live feeding, we think we need some clarity as to whether that is going to be made illegal under this clause of fighting. Our concerns are, because of Clause 3(iv)(c), the need to be able to exhibit normal behavior patterns, that snakes in the wild feed on life prey, there are no carrion feeding snakes, so that would mean we are not going to be able to feed them frozen food; we are going to have to feed them live mice, and equally we would be opposed to having to introduce that."

That document is a really interesting read.

For the most part, Im on board with anatess. We have over 20 snakes, and breed ASFs as well. We feed the snakes every Friday evening, and we offer every snake a meal. If the snake is hungry and takes the prey, we just move on to the next animal. If the snake doesn't accept a meal, that live prey is offered to the next snake until all have been offered. Those ASFs/rats that do not get eaten get put back in the feed out/grow out tank and get to live and play until next Friday. I couldn't imagine the money Id waste if I had several snakes refuse a f/t meal. In addition, it would take me much more time to thaw out all those frozen rodents for 20+ snakes. I work late. When I come home on Friday nights and feed the babies, I just wanna git-r-done. With live, I can just jump right in. In the wild, snakes eat LIVE prey. They don't have someone waiting there to intervene with tongs if the prey starts scratching/biting them, and they survive just fine. Yes, I do believe there are a few instances where f/t would be preferred over live, such as if I had a scaleless bp, or a very "aloof" hatchling that needs his food left in the tub overnight. I don't believe that one way is "better" than the other. I think what it boils down to is whatever works better for that persons situation and collection.

[satomi325]

This is something I've always wondered when it comes to the live vs f/t debate. Is it really faster to feed live than f/t? Because if you breed your own rats it takes time to take care of the colony so I think that would be the equivalent to thawing out feeders since both take work but raising rats is a lot more work. And when you just drop in the larger feeders (smalls and mediums) I've heard that people keep pencils next to the enclosure incase of a bad strike or just a feisty feeder. So monitoring a feeding with feeders that could potentially injure your snake links up to the zombie dance time right? Maybe I'm wrong about this but I'd like some feed back on this. Has anyone else ever thought of it this way? I'm weird when it comes to these things.


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For me personally, breeding my own rats is a lot more cost efficient. And that cost outweighs the 20-30 some minutes it takes me to change their bedding and rack once a week. No wasted feeders and I know that my rats are healthy because I know what goes into their direct care. And that 20-30 minutes sure beats zombie dancing for an hour(s). Yes hours. It would take me at least an hour or more to feed f/t to my collection.

Like I mentioned in my previous post, I go down the rack and drop feeders into the tubs. If I hear a strike, I walk over and check out that snake to see if they have a good hold. If they do, I just move on. If they don't, I just stick something into their mouths till they're dead and then move on. I don't sit and watch every snake until they strike and coil. Every snake gets fed at the exact same time. I just wait till I hear the *thump* of a strike before checking on them. And if the snake doesn't eat in 20-30 mins, I take away the feeder to save for next week.

I've never had a feisty feeder because all of my rats are hand tamed and docile. They either sit & groom themselves in the tub. Or they walk around a bit and explore. It also helps to follow the general "responsible feeding" rule of thumbs: feed smaller and more frequent than larger and less often. I feed smalls to all of my adults. Maybe the occasional medium if I have an extra feeder that has lived that long. But smaller and younger the rat, the less dangerous they are. They are more naive and less conscious to danger than an adult would be so they are unlikely to fight back or be aggressive. And even if they bite, it won't have the same damage potential as a large or jumbo rat for example.

F/T is do-able for a couple snakes. But I bet if you had 50-60-70-100+ snakes, f/t wouldn't be very time or cost efficient and would be a general pain.

[AlexisFitzy]

For me personally, breeding my own rats is a lot more cost efficient. And that cost outweighs the 20-30 some minutes it takes me to change their bedding and rack once a week. No wasted feeders and I know that my rats are healthy because I know what goes into their direct care. And that 20-30 minutes sure beats zombie dancing for an hour(s). Yes hours. It would take me at least an hour or more to feed f/t to my collection.

Like I mentioned in my previous post, I go down the rack and drop feeders into the tubs. If I hear a strike, I walk over and check out that snake to see if they have a good hold. If they do, I just move on. If they don't, I just stick something into their mouths till they're dead and then move on. I don't sit and watch every snake until they strike and coil. Every snake gets fed at the exact same time. I just wait till I hear the *thump* of a strike before checking on them. And if the snake doesn't eat in 20-30 mins, I take away the feeder to save for next week.

I've never had a feisty feeder because all of my rats are hand tamed and docile. They either sit & groom themselves in the tub. Or they walk around a bit and explore. It also helps to follow the general "responsible feeding" rule of thumbs: feed smaller and more frequent than larger and less often. I feed smalls to all of my adults. Maybe the occasional medium if I have an extra feeder that has lived that long. But smaller and younger the rat, the less dangerous they are. They are more naive and less conscious to danger than an adult would be so they are unlikely to fight back or be aggressive. And even if they bite, it won't have the same damage potential as a large or jumbo rat for example.

F/T is do-able for a couple snakes. But I bet if you had 50-60-70-100+ snakes, f/t wouldn't be very time or cost efficient and would be a general pain.

Thanks so much for a perfectly thought out answer that was the kind of answer I was looking for. And if BHB and Royal Constrictor Designs and other large scale breeders can feed their snakes f/t and they have hundreds (500+) even thousands of animals to feed. I think I could feed 100+ as well. But I'd never acquire that many snakes if I didn't have the time or finances to provide them what they needed. Whether it's caring for the feeders or preparing f/t rats whatever works for you is best


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[jxl]

After a mouse turned and attacked my snake, I'll never feed live again. And it's so much simpler than having smelly stinky mouse or rats in house It's also cheaper if you're not breeding own rodents. Live prey costs almost twice as much.