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10-05-2013, 12:43 PM
#101
BPnet Veteran
Re: Scale-less BP photo!
 Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser
I have a hunch they will not be getting scale rot, just a hunch.
Also I think the average joe argument is a bad one, average joe can do anything to the animal regardless of scales or not.
Lol maybe I should of been more specific, guess I thought it would of been obvious. But anyways.. here goes, a bacterial infection on its bare skin without scales protecting it will make for a horrible case of BELLY rot.
Last edited by filly77; 10-05-2013 at 12:47 PM.
0.1 ♥♥♥Mojave, Peyote ♥♥♥
1.0 Pastave,
1.0 Ghost, Marley
1.0 Pastel Male, Houdini
0.2 Normals, Violet & Indigo
1.1 Het Hypos, Striker & Charger
1.0 German Shepherd Dog, Apollo
0.1 Chihuahua, Brooklyn
0.2 Min Pins, Isis & Vixen
0.2 Cats, Spook and Miffy
0.0.3 Super Blue Dendrobates Auratus
rats, 0.2 'tiels, ~sings~ and a partridge in a pear tree..
~RIP Ekektra we miss you every second of the day 5/27/09 - 7-04-10~
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10-05-2013, 12:45 PM
#102
Registered User
Re: Scale-less BP photo!
To some extent, I agree with the "stay out of it, it doesn't affect you" bit. But if someone is doing something that is causing an animal to suffer needlessly, I think that's where people should draw the line and start to get involved or protest. At that point, it becomes abuse, and that is definitely NOT okay.
I'm not saying we know enough about this morph yet to say that's the case. But if it is, I definitely will not go along with just "minding my own business because it's not my animal".
Last edited by Surrealle; 10-05-2013 at 12:52 PM.
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10-05-2013, 12:47 PM
#103
Registered User
Re: Scale-less BP photo!
 Originally Posted by Surrealle
So, here's a stupid question.. Do these guys shed?
"Note: the scaleless Corn Snakes shed just like any other snake, you just get a scaleless exuvia which is thinner. Their scaleless skin is composed of an external and internal layer" (from here). So yes, scaleless snakes shed.
On another note:
The protection argument can only work so far. A bite from a rat or mouse is going to cause damage whether the snake has scales or not. Scales only offer so much protection, and pointy objects go through scales just fine. Since BPs don't need light the same way bearded dragons do, there's no reason to assume that the animal will have any trouble regulating body temp or getting burned. Just like ALL animals: Don't offer a heat source hot enough for them to burn themselves on, and they won't! I do have to wonder if the hot spot in the tank will need to be a bit lower though; to what degree do scales effect thermoregulation, if at all?
Last edited by Bugmom; 10-05-2013 at 12:49 PM.
Reason: added missing words
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10-05-2013, 12:49 PM
#104
Re: Scale-less BP photo!
guess ill have to break this down..
 Originally Posted by Crotalids
I never said Brian founded the spider, I said "Any individual that bred the spider". Couldn't care less who bred it, they are all the same.
lets recap...
Just like with the spider's. The big breeders were well aware of the issues surrounding them, but was kept that quiet.
The irony of saying "big breeder", just say their name or are you going to keep quite also?
I don't have a problem with saying Brian's name, the reason I didn't is because all big breeders at the same.
How the heck am I supposed to read it any other way? Thus I confirmed you knew Kevin founded it. Since you still never said his name
 Originally Posted by Crotalids
I never said these 100% have problems. Your comprehension of English isn't very good is it? I said IF they have problems, they wouldn't tell you. It would lessen the amount of money they will make.
Thus if brian showed the problems publicly, it would make you wrong. What was that about comprehension?
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10-05-2013, 12:52 PM
#105
Re: Scale-less BP photo!
 Originally Posted by filly77
Lol maybe I should of been more specific, guess I thought it would of been obvious. But anyways.. here goes, a bacterial infection on its bare skin without scales protecting it will make for a horrible case of BELLY rot.
The bacteria forms when lodged under the scales, causing the infection that rots the scales and skin, not having scales would actually help that since it wouldn't harbor it.
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The Following User Says Thank You to OhhWatALoser For This Useful Post:
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10-05-2013, 01:03 PM
#106
Re: Scale-less BP photo!
 Originally Posted by Surrealle
To some extent, I agree with the "stay out of it, it doesn't affect you" bit. But if someone is doing something that is causing an animal to suffer, I think that's where people should draw the line and start to get involved or protest. At that point, it becomes abuse, and that is definitely NOT okay.
I'm not saying we know enough about this morph yet to say that's the case. But if it is, I definitely will not go along with just "minding my own business because it's not my animal". Same as any other situation where I see an animal in unnecessary distress at the hands of a human.
I suppose I should have said within reason of not being abusive where the animal couldn't live a quality life.
The breeders involved are passionate about their animals. I'd like to think they don't purposely abuse their animals or make them suffer.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
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10-05-2013, 01:07 PM
#107
BPnet Veteran
Re: Scale-less BP photo!
I assumed if people lacked on cleaning, them laying in their own waste would cause harm to their skin. But if what you say is true, than I stand corrected. Ty
 Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser
The bacteria forms when lodged under the scales, causing the infection that rots the scales and skin, not having scales would actually help that since it wouldn't harbor it.
0.1 ♥♥♥Mojave, Peyote ♥♥♥
1.0 Pastave,
1.0 Ghost, Marley
1.0 Pastel Male, Houdini
0.2 Normals, Violet & Indigo
1.1 Het Hypos, Striker & Charger
1.0 German Shepherd Dog, Apollo
0.1 Chihuahua, Brooklyn
0.2 Min Pins, Isis & Vixen
0.2 Cats, Spook and Miffy
0.0.3 Super Blue Dendrobates Auratus
rats, 0.2 'tiels, ~sings~ and a partridge in a pear tree..
~RIP Ekektra we miss you every second of the day 5/27/09 - 7-04-10~
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10-05-2013, 01:10 PM
#108
Registered User
Re: Scale-less BP photo!
 Originally Posted by satomi325
I suppose I should have said within reason of not being abusive where the animal couldn't live a quality life.
The breeders involved are passionate about their animals. I'd like to think they don't purposely abuse their animals or make them suffer.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
Fair enough.. And I wasn't directing my response at you specifically, I've seen a few others in this thread telling the nay-sayers to mind their own business because it doesn't affect them.
I think if an animal is suffering, in this case by potentially not being able to thrive because it's scaleless, people should get up in arms about it whether it affects them directly or not. I'd be disgusted with anyone that would just shrug and let it slide.
(Unfortunately, when you're talking about the kind of money this type of snake could fetch, I don't trust anyone to have the animal's best interest at heart. Not saying they wouldn't, but I personally wouldn't rely on it.)
And once again, I'm not saying that is the case here. We clearly don't know enough yet to judge.
Last edited by Surrealle; 10-05-2013 at 01:13 PM.
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10-05-2013, 01:24 PM
#109
It all comes down to quality of life.
For dogs I list the following:
Golden Retrievers are prone to hip dysplasia.
German Shepherd Dogs are prone to hip dysplasia.
Basset Hounds are prone to luxation of vertebral discs.
Rotweilers are prone to anemia and ACL tears.
Shar Peis are prone to skin fold pyodermas.
For Cats I list the following:
Scottish folds are prone to arthritis later in life, and also carry a lethal recessive gene.
Persians are prone to breathing difficulties, skin fold pyodermas, and have a constant self care deficit.
Sphynxes are prone to getting cold at night, and also are more likely to have dry skin.
However, in each of these cases, the animals are able to be properly cared for and have a good quality of life with only MINOR changes to "normal" husbandry practices.
Spider Balls are no different. The wobble is passed with the gene; anyone who is against it is free to stop making them, but the fact is that the wobbliness (in most cases) does not affect the animal's quality of life. If anything, it can increase it–everyone seems to take extra good care of their spiders BECAUSE they have the propensity for an issue.
This Scaleless morph will be seen by the general public in a few weeks (days??) and as more information goes out about it we will get the REAL story....not some speculation based on 2 pictures, or phone calls to those who have glimpsed the animal. Then it is up to you (and the breeders) to decide what will happen with it. If there is solid evidence that the morph is challenged to the point of inability to properly survive, I have no doubt that all RESPONSIBLE breeders will cease mass production, or at least will work with the gene privately in an attempt to rectify the problems.
However, if there is no issue with the morph–it is able to breath, shed (if that's a thing with them), eat, poop, and interact safely–and there would only have to be slight modifications to husbandry to keep them healthy and happy (no spiney substrate, only F/T meals, etc.), then what would the difference be between a Scaleless BP and a German Shepherd Dog with hip dysplasia?? They both live happy, healthy, meaningful lives, and only require SLIGHT modifications to their diet/exercise/housing to deal with a non-lethal issue that is "natural" to their breed.
If anyone is of a different mindset, and would like to express their view, go for it!! Maybe you will get some converts...diversity is a good thing.
But if you want to get others to agree with you, you need to have SOLID REASONS for how you feel (not just feelings), and you CAN"T attack the other person for their beliefs. Quarreling never persuades anyone; if just polarizes the issue even further. The only way to convince someone else that their view needs adjusting is to acknowledge their viewpoint, put your hand around their shoulder, and lead them gently to your side of things; dragging them over while calling them names will only result in anger and dissent.
[/END POST]
CRYSTAL MEPH
1.0 100% Het for Carmel Normal–Mycroft (P. regius)
1.2 Manx, Scottish Fold, Tabby–Mocha, Precious, Kitty-Beau (F. domesticus)
30.90 Breeder Mice (M. musculus)
"It will all be okay in the end. If it's not okay, its not the end"
–John Lennon//oo\\
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The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Mephibosheth1 For This Useful Post:
Anya (10-08-2013),Expensive hobby (10-05-2013),Surrealle (10-05-2013)
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10-05-2013, 01:34 PM
#110
My only quarry regarding scaleless snakes is whether or not they have eyecaps and belly scales. Without eyecaps, I can imagine that being without any means to clean their eyes, it could get infected, or at least be irritating. However, I do know that French-line scaleless corns actually do have eyecaps, so I won't disregard other scale-less snakes if they also have eyecaps.
Otherwise, as long as the animal remains healthy and well in captivity, then I don't see a problem. After all, it's not like other morphs such as albinism don't increase the risk of cancer or blindness.
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