thanks, neal i noticed most vanillas or pastels for that matter that are bright in the egg after shed brown out later down the road, (most of the time) none apear normal to me, they all have blushings on the back and clear bellys, the pattern on the (pastel vanilla?) is the same as the siblings that im almost sure are vanillas. im good at seeing 2 genes in animals but anything past 3 genes unless its obvious tends to be a nightmare for me.