Potential rat breeding colony problem...

[gsarchie]

I've had two females die in the last 4 days. Some background:

I had 10 females and one male as breeders and the offspring, varying in size, totaled around 25. They are spread between 6 tubs with 5 tubs having a breeding pair of girls and a 6th tub being for raising up feeders for my larger snakes. The male rotates between the female tubs.

I used pine bedding from Big R and changed it all out on Sunday. I've been using it (pine) for months with no issues. I've also had them on bedding from the same bag for a month now (big bags that last a while) which leads me to the assumption that I don't have a bad batch of bedding.

I use half gallon water bottles that always have water and they always have Mazuri 6F available to eat.

The females were in different racks in opposite corners of my rat/snake room.

Temperatures haven't changed drastically in the last weeks and both the tubs and the room has great ventilation.

Death #1 - an older female that I've had for about 8 months and that I bought as an older rat, maybe 4 months old at purchase, from PetSmart. There was one other female in the tub with her and each had a littler within 2 days of each other. The other female in the tub didn't nurse (first time mom, she's got one more chance in a tub by herself and then she's gone) when she dropped her litter and I assumed that trying to feed 25 pups killed the girl that died. I threw her out, not wanting to feed her off without knowing what killed her. When she died the male hadn't been in the tub for approximately 1 week.

Death #2 - A younger female that I produced, maybe 4 months old, in a tub with another male and female. She had a male introduced yesterday for the first time and I had heard a little more ruckus than usual when the male first gets rotated into a tub with some ladies that he hasn't seen for a while. She was apparently fine 2 hours before I found her but earlier tonight she was dead. She was still warm and pliable, so no rigor mortis when I found her, indicating a very recent passing. When I picked her up by the tail the bulge, or pointy organ/tissue, that is anterior to the vaginal opening had a bit of dried blood on it and the vaginal opening seemed rather large. I am assuming that this is either 1) from the vaginal walls being relaxed in death or 2) the male breeding heavily with her. I suppose it is possible that he was forcing himself on her when she wasn't actually sexually ready (and/or willing, explaining the increased ruckus in the tub after I introduced the male) and that the stress killed her. I put her in the fridge and am considering getting a necropsy done but am still undecided on that as I am not sure how much it will cost and at this point I am not sure if any more will die.

Basically I have a theory for why each died but I find it strange that two females died that close together simply by chance. Also strange is that the females both were housed with other rats in their tubs, all of which are fine as I type this.

I think that I have covered most everything at this point. Let me know of any thoughts that you have or if you have any requests for more information.

[E71000]

if you rats were sick you would see that they where sick and they will start droping like flies but i dont thing they are sick

Death #1 sounds like the old female died from being old 25 is a lot of babies even for a young rat and it takes a lot out of them you should try to brake the babies up with 2 moms if you have that many or maybe you did you said there was other rats in the tub

Death #2 the same thing happen to me a female around 4 months she was never bred she was in the tub with some other rats and a male and i found her dead just like you said (When I picked her up by the tail the bulge, or pointy organ/tissue, that is anterior to the vaginal opening had a bit of dried blood on it and the vaginal opening seemed rather large) i through the male must have been to hard on her

hope this was helpful

[gsarchie]

Death #1 sounds like the old female died from being old 25 is a lot of babies even for a young rat and it takes a lot out of them you should try to brake the babies up with 2 moms if you have that many or maybe you did you said there was other rats in the tub

The 25 were only half hers, the other female in the tub and her both dropped 13-14 babies two days. The momma that didn't die also didn't nurse, the momma that died was trying to nurse them all. I think that trying to feed that many pups may have been what killed her. Thanks for the input and it was helpful. No more dead ones, I just checked, so fingers crossed.

[sorraia]

The older one may have been too stressed, or otherwise unable to take care of herself and all those babies. The younger could have had a uterine infection brewing. Her death/symptoms (blood around the urogenital area) could have just been coincidental with the introduction of the male.

As for running a necropsy... unless you plan on paying for biopsies and lab tests, just do the gross necropsy yourself. It isn't too hard, especially if you have ANY experience with dissection at all. If you need help knowing what you are looking at, I can send you links to sites with good information, or you can take pictures and send me and I'll take a look to see if I can spot anything. You may not be able to determine cause of death, but you can rule out some causes. It's a heck of a lot cheaper too. (A vet I used to work with charged $70 for a gross necropsy, and basically told me the same thing I could have determined by myself for free.)