How Much Inbreeding is Acceptable?

[snakesRkewl]

darn that imaginary non existent homo spiders, lol

[dprballs]

I wonder though, if its possible for a different spider to exist in the wild, without the wobble gene. That could open the door to Super Spiders < there, ya see how inbreeding starts lol

[satomi325]

I wonder though, if its possible for a different spider to exist in the wild, without the wobble gene. That could open the door to Super Spiders < there, ya see how inbreeding starts lol

Its very possible. There are several countries that BPs are native to. Only one or two of those countries allow BPs to be exported/farmed. So imagine what sort of neat morphs are in those other territories? Especially since reptiles are so locally adapted.

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[dprballs]

Its very possible. There are several countries that BPs are native to. Only one or two of those countries allow BPs to be exported/farmed. So imagine what sort of neat morphs are in those other territories? Especially since reptiles are so locally adapted.

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Yeah im aware of that. I reckon with the money involved though, snakes from those other countries are bound to make their way out of africa! I know from reading the VPI book that in some parts of africa, ball pythons are still so revered that they wont even allow them to be collected for scientific purposes, let alone exportation!! I also read that the first reported piebald was killed in some voodoo ritual in the 1960s!!!

E2a thats q contradictory, but ill roll with it lol

[C&H Exotic Morphs]

Jury is still out on spider x spider, some say they have smaller clutches because spider x spider fails to fertilize and get reabsorbed. Some say they they see no difference in clutch size. IF there is any effect as a super form, it's VERY subtle, enough that even after years of pairings no one's really certain.

As far as the original question goes, reptiles are more resilient to line breeding than mammals. Most of these morphs started off as dinkers, they have to be line bred to prove them out. Personally I have no problem with 2 generations (or 3 if I was on a very special project), but after that I'd try to bring in outside blood.

Can you please explain how the part in bold works?
Seeing that follicles don't met the males sperm until ovulation after which time it is impossible for a female to reabsorb.

[RandyRemington]

I don't know, maybe detailed studies have been done about snake reproduction but it also wouldn't surprise me if a lot of what we think we know is wrong. For example, is what we call ovulation really ovulation or maybe some later stage?

Anyway, there are a bunch of theories as to why no one has come public with a proven homozygous spider in the last 20 years:

1. No one cares enough to breed spider to spider and keep all the offspring, raise them up, and breed them to test for a homozygous spider. I know TSK was a few years into doing just that last time I heard but spiders had been around a long time before they started the big effort to finally figure out what sort of mutation spider is.

2. The homozygous spiders are such train wrecks that those that have produced them don't want to talk about them.

3. The homozygous spiders die some time in the reproductive process. This is where the idea of 3/4 sized spider X spider clutches comes from.

4. Spider is caused by an extra chromosome and the 2nd extra is eliminated in what would be the "homozygous" spider. I didn't completely understand this one but downs syndrome was mentioned as an example when this theory was proposed. Ironic if this interesting explanation turns out to be scientifically accurate because it came out of a discussion started by kid named Tommy Rosati who made up a bunch of fake data to sabotage the scientific discussion and then posted to fake his death when called on it, lol.

[RandyRemington]

BTW, spider is quite possibly the very MOST outbred morph as almost no one ever breeds spider X spider.

But back to inbreeding, I believe it's been done a lot in corn snakes and I've not heard of major problems. Still, I try to avoid it. I had to do one generation to prove the super of my Garcia chocolate line but then rather than breeding back another generation I used a two generations outbred male just in case. Probably wouldn't have had any problems but seemed better safe than sorry.

[eatgoodfood]

I really do not think there is as much inbreeding going on as you think. Sure, maybe a generation or two, especially when proving a morph, but after that everything is being bred out to other morphs to get combos. Someone mentioned spider, came from one wild caught animal, like many other morphs. Yet how much do you think it was inbred, what happens when you breed a spider to a normal, what do you get, more spiders, not much reason to breed them together. Clown, or any recessive, once it was proved, people wanted to mix it with other morphs, so what happens, you outbreed to something else, then maybe back to the het mother, or two siblings together to try to get a visual, but this likely happens only one or two generations till you start getting visuals and then 100 percent hets then outbreeding you know what you get.

[Badgemash]

Can you please explain how the part in bold works?
Seeing that follicles don't met the males sperm until ovulation after which time it is impossible for a female to reabsorb.

My bad, should have said slug.

[Bluebonnet Herp]

Its very possible. There are several countries that BPs are native to. Only one or two of those countries allow BPs to be exported/farmed. So imagine what sort of neat morphs are in those other territories? Especially since reptiles are so locally adapted.

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Do you think this opens up the possibility that even special locality ball pythons could exist, much in the way like we have locality Boa constrictors such as Sonoran or Hogg Island?