How Much Inbreeding is Acceptable?

[Konotashi]

First question - what are the right terms for the parents of a litter? Sire/dam? I'll just use that terminology - hope that's okay....

I was looking at some ads on KS, and I saw someone selling a pair of BPs (1.1, obviously, being a pair), and they had different dams but the same sire.
The way the ad was written and the way the person was selling the snakes, it was apparent that the intention of selling them together was for them to be bred.

Is that generally accepted?

How much inbreeding is deemed 'okay' for snakes? Are deformities/health issues common in snakes inbred to a certain extent? (Shortened lifespan, even)? How closely related do snakes need to be inbred before such problems are seen?

I know some (most, maybe?) snakes come with paperwork, but how far back in the line does paperwork usually go? I know with dogs, you can go back tons of generations. There are some pedigrees with German shepherds (just using an example) that can be traced all the way back directly to Horand von Grafrath - the first registered German shepherd. I don't expect snakes' bloodlines to be quite that inclusive, but how many generations are included on paperwork? Just the sire and dam? Or are there more?

Any insight would be appreciated!

[sho220]

First question - what are the right terms for the parents of a litter? Sire/dam? I'll just use that terminology - hope that's okay....

I was looking at some ads on KS, and I saw someone selling a pair of BPs (1.1, obviously, being a pair), and they had different dams but the same sire.
The way the ad was written and the way the person was selling the snakes, it was apparent that the intention of selling them together was for them to be bred.

Is that generally accepted?

How much inbreeding is deemed 'okay' for snakes? Are deformities/health issues common in snakes inbred to a certain extent? (Shortened lifespan, even)? How closely related do snakes need to be inbred before such problems are seen?

I know some (most, maybe?) snakes come with paperwork, but how far back in the line does paperwork usually go? I know with dogs, you can go back tons of generations. There are some pedigrees with German shepherds (just using an example) that can be traced all the way back directly to Horand von Grafrath - the first registered German shepherd. I don't expect snakes' bloodlines to be quite that inclusive, but how many generations are included on paperwork? Just the sire and dam? Or are there more?

Any insight would be appreciated!

Inbreeding is generally frowned upon except in West Virginia...

[TheSnakeGuy]

From what I've read and seen it seems that breeders have been doing inbreeding or as it's called in the hobby line-breeding as an acceptable practice and it's been done for several years. I'm sure some people have a limit to the number of generations of offspring that they'll breed back their mothers in order to not risk any deformities. I'm planning to do it in the next couple years. If I get lucky and produce a male of the worlds first morph combo that I'm shooting for I will definitely be breeding it back to mom the following year for the chance at another worlds first.

[dprballs]

Im no expert, but from what i can gather, inbreeding in reptiles does not cause the same problems as mammals. Its just accepted. Im pretty sure i read all clowns can be traced back to a group of 5 sibling snakes imported from africa, and these are bred together over and over. Ive read numerous times all spiders came from one WC specimen(obviously these cant be bred together) and im sure there are other morphs which can be traced back to an equally limited gene pool which are bred together.

If anyone cares to correct me i would be happy, as im here trying to learn, thats just my take on it!

[Konotashi]

That's interesting.
That also makes me winder if the inbreeding was the cause of spiders' head wobble.

I saw a quote somewhere once.
"When it goes as planned, it's called line breeding. When it goes wrong, it's called inbreeding."

So generally speaking, you can breed back and forth within the same family tree with little to no issues? As far as we know, anyway?

[dprballs]

no. the original WC specimen had the head wobble and it seems its a genetic mutation thats tied to the mutation that causes the spider appearance(hope that makes sense) Spider x Spider always ends in fatality, i think the normals in the clutch would survive, but any snakes that had the spider gene from both parents would not hatch.

[Konotashi]

That makes sense. Like how the gene that shortens the legs in dogs and cats (corgis, munchkins) affects the heart, so they often have heart issues.

[satomi325]

Inbreeding in reptiles is really common, even out in nature. They are a non migratory species that stay local so outcrossing to a new population is pretty rare. They couldn't tell if they were breeding a relative or not. That's why you get special locality based animals of the same species.

Yup. The original spider had the wobble and is part of the spider mutation. Non spider siblings don't typically have wobbles.

And yes, inbreeding doesn't have the same negative effects as seen in mammals. I imagine its part of their adaptation as non migratory animals. It just makes them have a higher homozygosity as well.

Personally, I wouldn't inbreed more than a few gens.
That's just my personal preference.

Not many people use pedigree charts for their snakes. But should have hatch records of direct parents, which could probably be traced to their parents and so on. No one usually puts more than parents on paper work.

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[Artemille]

Spider x spider only becomes fatal in homozygous carriers, so 25% chance. Some spiders would still hatch.

[Badgemash]

Jury is still out on spider x spider, some say they have smaller clutches because spider x spider fails to fertilize and get reabsorbed. Some say they they see no difference in clutch size. IF there is any effect as a super form, it's VERY subtle, enough that even after years of pairings no one's really certain.

As far as the original question goes, reptiles are more resilient to line breeding than mammals. Most of these morphs started off as dinkers, they have to be line bred to prove them out. Personally I have no problem with 2 generations (or 3 if I was on a very special project), but after that I'd try to bring in outside blood.