My personal thoughts on hatchlings with tangled cords

[rabernet]

I raised this theory last year, actually. I don't think it's the cutting as much as the constantly checking, poking prodding to get a better look after cutting.

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[spitzu]

I haven't produced a clutch of my own yet, so really I'm just spitballing here, but it seems to be that candling is a totally non-invasive way to ensure that you aren't letting your female incubate infertile eggs for 60 days and probably refusing food for that time. Also, and again, not based on personal experience, it seems like infertile eggs or ones that start out fertile and fail to develop are the more likely ones to grow mold or start to go sour and could possibly affect your healthy eggs.

All of my infertile eggs started rotting after a week or two. You'll definitely notice THAT smell well before 60 days

[CapeFearConstrictors]

I think the problem is more likely the constant jostling and checking on the snakes while they're in the egg that causes the problem. They tend to try to hide further in the egg when that happens and it increases the chance of getting tangled.

I cut my eggs, but my egg boxes are transparent and my incubator has windows, so I don't even have to take my egg box out to check on them. I just walk up to the incubator and peek in. I open the box once a day to get some fresh air in the tubs but that's pretty much it. I understand the urge to check on them all the time, but they are much more interesting to look at once they come out of the egg anyway!

[UltraViolet]

I've never hatched snake eggs, but I was a homebirth midwife for 20 years. Three things come to mind in relation to this thread: If you scare the mother, a properly positioned baby will often turn breech. In my experience, anything we do in labor to help the process or expedite thing often just slows everything down. According to research done now that a large number of babies have been born by planned cesarean section (rather than in response to problems during pregnancy or labor), cesarean born babies are more likely to die unexpectedly following their birth.
Other things I've heard are that people with pet mammals often find that "helping" with the process of labor does just the opposite and can lead to loss of the entire litter. If you help baby chicks out of their eggs, it kills them.
i can't imagine that snakes eggs are any different and if I do decide to have babies some day I'll be messing with those eggs as little as possible.

[MrLang]

I've never hatched snake eggs, but I was a homebirth midwife for 20 years. Three things come to mind in relation to this thread: If you scare the mother, a properly positioned baby will often turn breech. In my experience, anything we do in labor to help the process or expedite thing often just slows everything down. According to research done now that a large number of babies have been born by planned cesarean section (rather than in response to problems during pregnancy or labor), cesarean born babies are more likely to die unexpectedly following their birth.
Other things I've heard are that people with pet mammals often find that "helping" with the process of labor does just the opposite and can lead to loss of the entire litter. If you help baby chicks out of their eggs, it kills them.
i can't imagine that snakes eggs are any different and if I do decide to have babies some day I'll be messing with those eggs as little as possible.

This is perfect. Thread ended.

[Dave Green]

I stopped cutting my eggs a couple years ago. It wasn't because of any issues with the babies hatching it was because I noticed a better feeding response from babies that hatched on their own.

[SquamishSerpents]

While it IS a common practice to cut ball python eggs, I think it's wrong to say "everyone" does it. IF someone is cutting eggs, they are far more likely to post pictures of it. So you see lots of pictures of cut eggs. But anyone who doesn't cut eggs isn't going to give daily updates about the eggs they didn't cut. So it only LOOKS like "everyone" is doing it, because those that don't aren't bothering to talk about it except in threads like this.

This is a very good point Judy, however I do still feel that the majority of breeders cut their eggs. Again, I could be way off base on this. I have started a poll here: Are you a cutter?

I believe that the main purpose of egg cutting is to aid the hatchling in escaping from their egg shells and not so that you can get an early peek at what's inside (although that's definately a bonus)

I believe that SHOULD be the main purpose of artificial pipping, but unfortunately I think a lot of new people coming in to the hobby are seeing numerous videos from big-time breeders who are cutting their eggs, and proudly calling out what the hatchlings are inside. They see that this is an accepted practice, people start asking "hey, what day are your eggs on, when are you cutting them?" I believe there may have been a shift in motives over the years. Just my opinion, however.

I would like to hear more on the subject of dead, fully developed babies who couldn't get out of the egg.

I personally have had a few DIEs. Mostly corn snakes. Fully developed, yes, but I have never found a DIE that didn't have some type of obvious deformity.

Just what I've gathered from reading around this forum and watching the boyfriend with his corn snake eggs, which he does not cut btw. If all the eggs in a clutch have pipped except a couple, he'll try to wait them out and if they haven't pipped within a day or so he'll cut to check on the baby but it seems like those end up containing dead-in-egg babies most of the time anyway.

See my point above, my experience is exactly this.

I raised this theory last year, actually. I don't think it's the cutting as much as the constantly checking, poking prodding to get a better look after cutting.

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I think the problem is more likely the constant jostling and checking on the snakes while they're in the egg that causes the problem. They tend to try to hide further in the egg when that happens and it increases the chance of getting tangled.

This is highly likely as well. Anything that startles a baby can harm a baby. IMO.

I've never hatched snake eggs, but I was a homebirth midwife for 20 years. Three things come to mind in relation to this thread: If you scare the mother, a properly positioned baby will often turn breech. In my experience, anything we do in labor to help the process or expedite thing often just slows everything down. According to research done now that a large number of babies have been born by planned cesarean section (rather than in response to problems during pregnancy or labor), cesarean born babies are more likely to die unexpectedly following their birth.
Other things I've heard are that people with pet mammals often find that "helping" with the process of labor does just the opposite and can lead to loss of the entire litter. If you help baby chicks out of their eggs, it kills them.
i can't imagine that snakes eggs are any different and if I do decide to have babies some day I'll be messing with those eggs as little as possible.

Thank you for your input! What an interesting field of work. I'd love to chat with you more about it one day!

I stopped cutting my eggs a couple years ago. It wasn't because of any issues with the babies hatching it was because I noticed a better feeding response from babies that hatched on their own.

This is another theory I have heard, and I think it has some merit, too.

Think about it, if a baby doesn't get to "use" it's VERY FIRST instinct, which is using it's egg tooth, cutting itself out of the egg, absorbing the yolk (that part is biological and not instinctual, but you know what I mean) and crawling out of the egg, then maybe it takes longer for the feeding instinct to "activate."

Also, I have to thank you all for your thoughtful responses! This is a very interesting thread for me!

[Kensa]

This is a really great thread. It brings the 'nature vs nurture' topic to the forefront. Although I am new to the hobby (won't say business because I don't have any plans to breed in the near future), I think I would have to say I would lean to the side of nature.

I believe that everyone is a product of their environment: if you stay inside and play video games while young as opposed to playing outside in the dirt, how will you ever develop a working immune system? If you cut the egg before the hatchling is ready to exit the egg are you not disturbing the natural cycle and possibly throwing the snake's instincts out of whack?

Maybe growing up on a ranch raising many different types of animals has given me the view of hands off as much as possible. Not only is it less stressful for all involved, it also decreases the work load. Just my $.02

[meowmeowkazoo]

I haven't produced a clutch of my own yet, so really I'm just spitballing here, but it seems to be that candling is a totally non-invasive way to ensure that you aren't letting your female incubate infertile eggs for 60 days and probably refusing food for that time. Also, and again, not based on personal experience, it seems like infertile eggs or ones that start out fertile and fail to develop are the more likely ones to grow mold or start to go sour and could possibly affect your healthy eggs.

Just what I've gathered from reading around this forum and watching the boyfriend with his corn snake eggs, which he does not cut btw. If all the eggs in a clutch have pipped except a couple, he'll try to wait them out and if they haven't pipped within a day or so he'll cut to check on the baby but it seems like those end up containing dead-in-egg babies most of the time anyway.

Well, I wouldn't say it's totally non-invasive. If you are maternally incubating the clutch, as I plan to, it is very invasive to the mother. Even if you are artificially incubating, at some point the babies will have developed eyes and the extremely bright light could startle them or upset them.

[JD Constriction]

I personally do cut and have seen a few twisted cords or wrapped snakes as well as lost a few babies over the years due to cord complications.

I think that cutting generically is almost an art-form. There are certain ways to do it which affect the hatchling less than other ways and there is more liberty in those methods the closer the hatchling is to pipping on its own.

Also constant checking of the babies would definitely make sense to me as having potential for causing issues. Them moving around more and more which in turn could cause issues with their cords makes sense. But I would guess is mostly in the cases where they have not nearly absorbed their yolk and are farther away from pipping on their own.

In general I would say the closer they are to them pipping that you cut the less complications you would have.
Also the closer you are to them pipping on their own the more you can check on them with out issues (after cutting).

There are people that cut in the 40s. I would say they are cutting a specific way and checking on them hardly ever, if at all, after they know what they have.

Hopefully that makes sense.....

Cutting a flap (not an open window) after the first one pips is one of the safer ways to do it IMO.

Great thread!