Identifying a low-white calico

[h00blah]

I have plenty of requirements for calicos . Color, amount of white, and pattern . You don't see many discussions about calico/sugar traits. Mostly just calico vs sugar discussions/debates.

[Kaorte]

I got a good chuckle out of this silly comment ...


Everyone has their opinions, but you show how little you know about the topic when you make comments like that
I guess low white pieds shouldn't be breed either? smh


To the OP's snake, forget the high/white low white crap, it's just not a very nice example IMO.

I understand what you mean and I even talked specifically about pieds. Low white pieds are beautiful. But you wouldn't breed two low white pies together with the expectation of producing hi white pies, right? This is basic selective breeding. You breed animals that display the traits you desire. Not the exact opposite. You don't have to be an expert to realize this basic concept.

I don't have direct experience with breeding calicos (yet) but selective breeding must play some part.

Its not a silly comment.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

[Mike41793]

Steffe, low white sugar/calicos are KNOWN to throw high whites. It's a proven tendency. I still say its completely random like pieds, but ive heard a few different breeders say that low white sugars/calicos consistently throw more high white offspring. Brian (Simple_Man) mentioned it before in one of his videos.

Are you saying pieds are genetic too? Two low white pieds could produce all high white offspring. Its random. Not much to do with selective breeding.

[Kaorte]

Steffe, low white sugar/calicos are KNOWN to throw high whites. It's a proven tendency. I still say its completely random like pieds, but ive heard a few different breeders say that low white sugars/calicos consistently throw more high white offspring. Brian (Simple_Man) mentioned it before in one of his videos.

Are you saying pieds are genetic too? Two low white pieds could produce all high white offspring. Its random. Not much to do with selective breeding.

Its random. You said it yourself.

I believe you that some low white calicos and pieds may produce the opposite. But this should not be an excuse to breed poor quality animals. The variations are random, but with selective breeding you should be able to create a line that highlights specific traits.

A proven tendency? That's an oxymoron if I've ever heard one!

You can't sit here and tell me the calico the OP posted is going to produce nice looking calicos.

The only way to determine if a low white calico will produce high whites is to prove it out. You can't make assumptions based on random variation.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

[snakesRkewl]

high white or low white has not one thing to do with quality when it comes to pieds or calicos, that is your opinion on which is better.

The pied X pied thing is totally random, you cannot expect more high whites from high white X high white pairings anymore than you can expect more high white calicos from breeding high X high.

It's not the same as wanting two of the brightest pastels to breed to each other.
It's not the same as having two highly flamed up yellowbelly's to breed to each other.

The pattern is much more important than the white, because that's what you're passing on consistently when you pair up calico's and sugars.

You can't sit here and tell me the calico the OP posted is going to produce nice looking calicos.

Your right, which is why I said it wasn't a nice example. My comment had nothing to do with the amount of white it has.

[Simple Man]

Its random. You said it yourself.

I believe you that some low white calicos and pieds may produce the opposite. But this should not be an excuse to breed poor quality animals. The variations are random, but with selective breeding you should be able to create a line that highlights specific traits.

A proven tendency? That's an oxymoron if I've ever heard one!

You can't sit here and tell me the calico the OP posted is going to produce nice looking calicos.

The only way to determine if a low white calico will produce high whites is to prove it out. You can't make assumptions based on random variation.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

This phrase makes what you are saying on this topic your opinion. If you talk to people that breed Sugars/Calicos you will know that what you are saying doesn't hold up to real world results. Your idea does apply to many genes and characteristics. The black back, low/no dots, blushing, pattern tearing, color, and everything else are genetically reproducible. This helps differentiate high and low quality animals. People that breed these genes will tell you that the gene randomly presents in various quantities of white pigmentation. There is no correlation between low white animals producing low white animals and vice versa for high white animals. The amount of white happens to randomly present on Sugars/Calicos. I do no intend to offend but your hypothetical opinion just doesn't stand against real world experience of people breeding Sugars/Calicos.

Regards,

B

[Kaorte]

Perhaps I didn't present my point in the way in which I intended. My point was that a calico that is lacking all they key characteristics of a calico (pattern and color), and is low white... shouldn't be expected to make a bunch of quality calicos.

The low white calicos that you guys posted are indeed nice and I have no doubt that they will produce both low white and high white calicos.

So we can conclude that the amount of white on an animal isn't genetic and doesn't determine "quality". Its a random occurrence.

Perhaps when I have the means to do so, I will experiment with selectively breeding low white vs high white pieds. I have a hard time believing (even if it is true) that you can't selectively breed for low white or high white animals to some extent.

[snakesRkewl]

Perhaps when I have the means to do so, I will experiment with selectively breeding low white vs high white pieds. I have a hard time believing (even if it is true) that you can't selectively breed for low white or high white animals to some extent.

Experiment away, nothing wrong with that, it's a hobby and if it drives you to try to figure it out, awesome.
Just remember, the pied gene has been there and done that, as has the calico/sugars, they've both been around the block a few times with lots of results from breeding highs and lows.

It definitely is all of the other traits you want to be "quality", no arguments there.

[Kaorte]

Experiment away, nothing wrong with that, it's a hobby and if it drives you to try to figure it out, awesome.
Just remember, the pied gene has been there and done that, as has the calico/sugars, they've both been around the block a few times with lots of results from breeding highs and lows.

It definitely is all of the other traits you want to be "quality", no arguments there.

My next project is lightning pieds, so I will be playing around with it. I know pied and calico have been out there for a while, but it's still worth trying to prove out. If my goal is to have a bunch of low white lightning pieds, I'm going to breed the low-whites together. When the results come in, I'll come back here and call myself the biggest idiot on the planet or the most genius snake breeder there ever was Worst case scenario, I have a bunch of lightning pieds. Doesn't sound so bad!

I really didn't mean for this to turn into a conversation about whether low white or high white is genetic, I was actually trying to bring about a discussion of breeding low quality animals in the hopes that they might magically make a nice looking animals, using (mistakenly) white markings as an example, since that is really the only noticeable calico trait that this particular snake has.

I thank you for your comments. I've been here a while, but I am still learning. Somewhere in my brain I knew that there wasn't a known correlation between low white and high white animals, but I was trying to focus on the broader picture of breeding animals that are lacking key traits of a particular morph in an attempt to somehow create nice looking examples of said morph.

I wish people didn't feel the need to purchase low quality animals, but I understand. The price can be so tempting for someone on a budget, especially when it is a good price for a morph that you'd love to work with. I'm guilty of this as well. Not all my animals are the BEST that they could be, but I tried (even when I was new to the hobby and on a college budget) to get the best looking morphs I could find for the right price. This resulted in a wrongly sexed "female" spider, and a $400 pinstripe. They are both great looking snakes, but not my best investments. I hope to eventually phase out all of my "generic" pastels and replace them with the Citrus line.

This is my first year of breeding. I'm still a newb and I have a lot to learn about genetics and breeding in general.

It just bothers me to see the ball market getting tanked by low quality animals that drive prices lower and lower. To me, breeding low quality animals is like backyard breeding puppies. Eventually you are going to want to sell those babies, and when they don't sell for the price you want, you will end up lowering the price until someone buys it....and the cycle repeats.

[Mike41793]

Its random. You said it yourself.

I believe you that some low white calicos and pieds may produce the opposite. But this should not be an excuse to breed poor quality animals. The variations are random, but with selective breeding you should be able to create a line that highlights specific traits.

A proven tendency? That's an oxymoron if I've ever heard one!

You can't sit here and tell me the calico the OP posted is going to produce nice looking calicos.

The only way to determine if a low white calico will produce high whites is to prove it out. You can't make assumptions based on random variation.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

I wasn't even arguing about the OP's calico. I was arguing the fact that what you said was incorrect. Low whites can throw high whites. Yes, its a proven tendency. It's been proven that that is what they tend to do when bred. I wasn't saying all low white calico/sugars produce high whites, I was just saying that it's entirely possible and does happen. You made it sound like low white calicos were poor quality animals not worth breeding, which isn't the case.
That may not have been what you meant, thats how I read it though...