Breeding vs Store bought feeders

[gsarchie]

Now that I have finished reading the thread I should say. Kiln dried pine would be ok for adult feeders but I wouldn't use it for breeders. Aspen is only slightly more expensive. I have a watering system that I got from reptile basics and it works great. You can find great tutorials on watering systems and rack setups on this site and others. http://www.reptilebasics.com/rodent-watering/

Mind if I ask why you wouldn't use it for breeders? Fumes maybe? It does put off a strong smell but I'm not aware of anything about the fumes being toxic...

[medusasmorphs]

One thing I have yet to see mentioned is the smell/care.

A small colony not a big deal, but it always starts small and grows. Your time is worth something, the smell can become unpleasurable for yourself, friends, guests etc... I know if I didn't own a 3 story (where im able to contain) house I would not be able to justify the smell. And I'm a fanatic of cleanliness, it doesn't matter it creeps!!

[Billy305]

One thing I have yet to see mentioned is the smell/care.

A small colony not a big deal, but it always starts small and grows. Your time is worth something, the smell can become unpleasurable for yourself, friends, guests etc... I know if I didn't own a 3 story (where im able to contain) house I would not be able to justify the smell. And I'm a fanatic of cleanliness, it doesn't matter it creeps!!

Yeah the smell isn't for everyone lol. If you clean often enough it's not that bad but I wouldn't personally do it inside. Only in my garage

[Weapon-x]

Judging by their weight, they should be young enough and not stubborn in their ways to switch to f/t. How often do you feed them? Let them go around 4 weeks without food to get them hungry. Heat a f/t mouse in hot water until its body temp is 90+ degrees. That should do the trick. If it doesn't, then wait 2 weeks before trying again. My apologies if you tried that method already. I've cared for 30+ ball pythons, but only have one live eater because she was 5 years old when i got her and she was fed live her whole life. I normally don't have any trouble switching them from live to f/t.

I'll have to try that again for my bp's. Of course they go 4 weeks without eating on their own sometimes, even though I offer every week.

[Weapon-x]

As others have mentioned breeding isn't for everyone. But if your going to go that route:
1) Build a rack- it's much, much easier to maintain than lab boxes/individual cages.
2) Water system- this is by far the single most time saving thing you do for yourself. When I was using water bottles I found myself having to re-fill them daily.
3) Oder Control: A few tricks I found that help. Add a few drops of vanilla extract to the water supply. That helps reduce the urine smell. Clean out the cages at least 1x week more often if you can. Look into Carbon Air Filters/Scrubbers.

4)Overstock: Mice reproduce fast if your not careful. At some points you will end up with excess mice- luckily most ball pythons will take a full grown mouse so you don't have to worry about the feeders out-growing your bp's. You will have to worry about the fact you have 80+ mice and your bp's have gone off feed for the winter. Figure out a back-up plan now. Selling the excess on CL, killing and freezing, etc.

6)Understock: Mice/rats tend to slow down their breeding in colder months. They also eat their own sometimes. So at some points your going to have to have a backup supply to feed your snakes.

7)Understanding significant others: This is probably the most important factor. I'm lucky that my gf is very understanding and willing to put up with the mouse colony in the garage that she has to walk past everyday on her way to and from her car. The smell, the noise, the smell, the mess, and did I mention the smell? No matter what your going to have some smell- it's just matter of how bad. Some days she's even nice enough to feed and water so I don't have to do that after my 12hr+ work day. She's a keeper- even though I know she hates the mice. As she tells me often.

[LLLReptile]

Mind if I ask why you wouldn't use it for breeders? Fumes maybe? It does put off a strong smell but I'm not aware of anything about the fumes being toxic...

I used to breed fancy rats in addition to "regular" feeder rats, and Pine actually can trigger cancerous growths and severe respiratory problems in rodents kept on it for long periods of time. You won't notice it right away, and sometimes not for months, but pine does cause significant health problems in rodents you are keeping for prolonged periods of time.

A healthy breeder is a good breeder, so since you will be maintaining them for a longer period of time than most feeders, stands to reason to keep them on something other than pine - they'll struggle less with breathing problems (you notice a bit of smell - imagine a rodent with a sense of smell dozens, if not hundreds of times better than your own, living 1 - 2" away from the bedding!) and should live longer and produce more/stronger offspring.

I actually noticed that several rats I initially started my feeder colony with that were developing tumors as adults had them stop growing once I removed them from pine and put them on the same recycled newspaper bedding I was using for the 'fancy' rats. As I had a relatively large colony of rats (60 adults at one point), I did notice that there was a substantial decrease in respiratory issues once I eliminated pine - it may not be AS toxic as cedar, and is alright short term, but if you really want to maintain healthy rodents long term, I highly recommend a substrate other than pine. I used a relatively pricey bedding at the time (carefresh), but Gentle Touch is a pelleted aspen bedding that absorbs moisture and smell extremely well and is what we use in the stores. I wish I'd known of Gentle Touch when I was breeding rats, the stuff works wonders on odor and would have been a lifesaver for me back then!

Just my 2 cents!

-Jen

[wilomn]

I used to breed fancy rats in addition to "regular" feeder rats, and Pine actually can trigger cancerous growths and severe respiratory problems in rodents kept on it for long periods of time. You won't notice it right away, and sometimes not for months, but pine does cause significant health problems in rodents you are keeping for prolonged periods of time.

A healthy breeder is a good breeder, so since you will be maintaining them for a longer period of time than most feeders, stands to reason to keep them on something other than pine - they'll struggle less with breathing problems (you notice a bit of smell - imagine a rodent with a sense of smell dozens, if not hundreds of times better than your own, living 1 - 2" away from the bedding!) and should live longer and produce more/stronger offspring.

I actually noticed that several rats I initially started my feeder colony with that were developing tumors as adults had them stop growing once I removed them from pine and put them on the same recycled newspaper bedding I was using for the 'fancy' rats. As I had a relatively large colony of rats (60 adults at one point), I did notice that there was a substantial decrease in respiratory issues once I eliminated pine - it may not be AS toxic as cedar, and is alright short term, but if you really want to maintain healthy rodents long term, I highly recommend a substrate other than pine. I used a relatively pricey bedding at the time (carefresh), but Gentle Touch is a pelleted aspen bedding that absorbs moisture and smell extremely well and is what we use in the stores. I wish I'd known of Gentle Touch when I was breeding rats, the stuff works wonders on odor and would have been a lifesaver for me back then!

Just my 2 cents!

-Jen

I'm on the other side of the fence on this one. I have never, ever heard of pine and tumors having anything to do with eachother. I keep a few dozen breeders on pine and have for many years. I think in the last 5 years I might have seen 3 tumors on what has to be several thousand rats that have passed through my hands. I don't think there's a pine tumor cause and effect, more a coincidence in Jen's instance.

[mechnut450]

I know before I met my wife . I bred my own rodent ( replacing them ever so often with new ones to help keep the genes open and production at it peak.
since we moved together it been a pain buying 10-15 different rodents every week) they not cheap. I want to look into building a rodent rack and start my own breeding again as I can sell my extras off to the local pet stores.

[PiercingPrincess]

I buy off of the guy who suppies the mice for the pet stores in my area. he knows we buy for snakes so he sells them cheaper and in bulk. I only buy what i need on a 3 week rotation incase creatures dont eat or whatever. I dont have room to breed my own but I think it would be smelly and more of a hassel then it is worth.

[Egapal]

Sorry it took me some time to get back to you. Pinkies are going to be more sensitive to the remaining pine oils because they have no fur.