I'm a Newbie BP owner, and I got a few questions

[angllady2]

I am glad you are pleased with your new snakes. I have to tell you though, housing them together is not a very good idea. It can be done, but it really takes a lot of experience to do it correctly. You run a lot of real risks housing two snakes together, and the benefits are really negligible.

Among other things, illness is a real risk. If one gets sick, then both will be. This means double the vet bills, double the medication, and double the headache. And another consideration is cannibalism. There have been a number of documented cases of one ball python eating it's cage mate, which usually results in both dying. There is also a great risk involved in feeding two snakes housed together. Not only is it a lot more difficult to get them both eating, if one has an aggressive feeding response, there is a real chance the other might get bitten or even constricted by mistake.

Yes, there are people who house ball pythons and other snakes together successfully, but for most of us, it's simply not something we attempt. Too many risks involved with no real payoff for doing it.

I wish you all the best, but I really hope you will reconsider how you house your snakes.

Gale

[The Serpent Merchant]

Thank you all for your responses. I definitally need to do more work to her tank. Excuse my long post in return.

As of Current:
I already added 2 more paper towel rolls to her tank and a long wrapping paper tube, so she can go to one side of the tank to the other without worrying about being spotted. Which she adores. I put a hide on the cool side and still have the other one near the heater, but she tends to use those rolls as hides instead of using the actual hides in her tank. She seems to really enjoy that lol.
I'll also get her a smaller water dish on top or near the heater so the humidity is at the proper level and so she has access to clean drinking water at all times.
I don't have a thermostat as of yet, I know you all advised one, Barbie.Dragon recommended one, so I'll grab that. I have no idea where to find a temp gun, so I'll need to track that down. ... but I just don't see the need for a thermostat... it stays nice and warm in there during the day with her basking lamp on, and stays slightly cooler at night when the light is off, she seems to be doing fine without a thermostat but forgive my ignorance if I'm missing the big picture or if I'm in the wrong. I feel the top of the substrate as well as the bottom of the tank and even Monty herself to gauge temps. She stays pretty warm when she's on the "hot side" of the tank and her entire tank feels nice. With a slight change in temp from "cool" to "hot" sides of the tank. So far it seems that she's healthy and fine with the current heat setup. BUT I will buy a thermostat since so many of you said I should.
She weighs 2 1/2oz, which is about 75g if my conversion is correct. I will most likely pick up bigger mice for her at the next reptile show... I know she could probably use an upgrade as well as my hybrids.
I put her in a tub to test it out. She absolutely hated it. She was climbing the sides and was restless for nearly 4 hours. I put her back into her tank and she was perfectly fine. She laid under the light for about 10 minutes and then went into one of the tubes near the heater and then came out 2 hours later to drink and went back into that same tube. Needless to say, I'm a little suprised because I thought for sure she'd like being in a smaller enclosure that's also more private for her.
I will get her some fake plants and a sturdy climbing branch, and I like the idea of covering 3 sides of the tank. I put in a ton of hiding spots for her, by adding paper towel and wrapping paper rolls.
She seems content and healthy, hasn't shed for me yet however, but I've only had her for 3 weeks, yesterday.... I'll get onto my to-do list and I'm going to get what I need at the next reptile show coming up on the 16th.
OH! Also, is she just a Normal? I think she is, but more eyes are better than 2.
I uploaded a pic of her somewhere lol

The reason why you need a thermostat is because without one your heating pad WILL get hot enough to severely injure your snake. Most can get up to 130+ degrees and it only takes 108 degrees to cause a BP brain damage.

Do you have a thermometer with a probe? Heating pads don't change the temperature of the air inside the cage, because of this the dial type stick on thermometers are 100% useless to measure the actual temperature of the floor of the cage.

How thick is the substrate in that cage? with heating pads it needs to be 1/2" or less for the heat to be able to penetrate the surface. This however does not protect your snake from the high heat on the floor of the cage. BP's have been known to dig down into their substrate and lay on the glass below. I guarantee if you put your hand on the glass directly above the heating pad it will be significantly warmer than you think it is.

Here are 3 good thermostats in all price ranges. Don't waste your money on the junk sold in pet stores:

Budget: http://www.amazon.com/Hydrofarm-MTPR.../dp/B000NZZG3S

Mid-Range: http://www.reptilebasics.com/ranco-etc-111000-pre-wired

best: http://spyderrobotics.com/home/products.html

[The Serpent Merchant]

I am glad you are pleased with your new snakes. I have to tell you though, housing them together is not a very good idea. It can be done, but it really takes a lot of experience to do it correctly. You run a lot of real risks housing two snakes together, and the benefits are really negligible.

Among other things, illness is a real risk. If one gets sick, then both will be. This means double the vet bills, double the medication, and double the headache. And another consideration is cannibalism. There have been a number of documented cases of one ball python eating it's cage mate, which usually results in both dying. There is also a great risk involved in feeding two snakes housed together. Not only is it a lot more difficult to get them both eating, if one has an aggressive feeding response, there is a real chance the other might get bitten or even constricted by mistake.

Yes, there are people who house ball pythons and other snakes together successfully, but for most of us, it's simply not something we attempt. Too many risks involved with no real payoff for doing it.

I wish you all the best, but I really hope you will reconsider how you house your snakes.

Gale

This.

Here are some reasons why cohabitation snakes is a bad idea. This was originally written by another forum member so the credit goes to LGray23:


Here is my generic answer to questions like these:

Cohabitating reptiles even as the same species is not recommended. Insead of just telling you "no" I'll list the common reasons why.
1) Cannibalism, not common, but there are DOCUMENTED cases. This alone isn't worth the risk.
2) Stress. Even the most friendly snakes get stressed out, so why cause the stress? Snakes have no want or need to be with another snake unless it's for breeding purposes. Other than that, it's just an unwanted roommate that they can't get away from.
3) Space. They will constantly try to dominate eachother for the best spots in the enclosure, even if you have multiple hides, you'll mainly see them together in one spot. People usually see this as "cuddling". It's not cuddling, they are fighting over the best spot.
4) You wake up in the morning after feeding and there's a regurgitated mouse. Which one did it?
5) One gets sick, now both are sick. That's 2X the vet bills, 2X the medications, and 2X the stress.
6) You are told the new snake you bought is the same sex as the one you already have. a year later, you find eggs in the enclosure. You have not prepared, no incubator, no space for babies, and no one to sell them to. What do you do now? The pet store/vet/person sexed them wrong.
7) Quarantine. How are you going to quarantine the new snake away from your original one? As you gain more experience, you'll find that quarantine is a NECESSITY. You could get a perfectly healthy snake, or one covered in mite eggs that hatch 3 days after you bring it home. Now both snakes have mites. Snakes also can take a long time to start showing symptoms of illness, now you got your original snake sick because you didn't quarantine.

Those are just the more known and common issues with housing multiple reptiles. The list goes on. The only pro to housing them together is to save space in your house by only having one enclosure, but is it worth it? That is up to you. People that say "I house two together and they are fine", they are fine now but with them being housed together there is NO guarantee it will stay that way forever. The only way to avoid future issues is to house them separately.

[Annarose15]

Gale and Aaron have already listed the things than "can" happen when housing two BPs together. But the one thing that is already happening is that they have gone off feed. Baby BPs ONLY "fast" if they are stressed. That snuggling you're seeing - that's them competing for space, regardless of the fact that there is a ton of room in that tank. Section the tank off and turn it into two separate enclosures, one for each snake. And get a thermostat before you burn them both.

[valhalha30]

I understand and agree with you all, it's probably risky to house them together for health/sickness reasons....
having said that... I see no cuddling, both HAVE eaten before the temps dropped for winter. A lot of my snakes stopped eating for winter, not just them. Even my turtles and my king who is an amazing eater has taken a break from eating because of the drop in the atmospheric pressure due to the winter season. The temp at the very bottom of the glass is maybe 110 degrees, but at the top of the 3/4 inch of substrate its maybe 100 degrees. Neither of them dig, or fight, try to escape the tank or even bother with eachother at all... and when they do socialize, there isn't any "cuddling" or hissing or anything negative... they rub against eachother in passing sometimes, or mind their own.
My twin hybrids who are male and female, are housed together too. There has never been a problem with them for over a year and a half. My venomous-breed breeder friend has a mating pair of Black Mambas housed in one tank too. Yes, they are a breeding pair and that may make a difference, but he tells me stories of how they share the food they are given. One is a more gentle eater, and the other is more aggressive of an eater, but both eat the same amount of feeders. And never ever fight over the food.
I have kept a very close eye on the BPs since I've gotten Benny. I have a dupilcated setup in the same tank. If one towel tube is above the heater another is placed next to it on top of the heater too, to prevent fights for territory. Same goes with the cool side.. if there is one tube on the cool side, I put another tube on the cool side too. There are artifical plants and driftwood and a basking rock to break up the space and give plenty of places to go for them. As far as getting sick goes... from what I understand it's actually somewhat difficult for a captive snake that's been healthy it's whole life to spontaniously get sick... I've never heard of anything that disproves what you all have said, but I've also done enough research to know how to prevent any of my herps from getting sick. BUT, the risk is still there, so I of course will keep a very keen eye to any signs of health changes.
I know Monty is female and Benny is male, I had them checked by a professional BP breeder who gave me the go-ahead to house them together. I trust his word because he has helped me out with my herps in the past. He's never heard of cannibalism between BP's, but he said it wasn't impossible. He even told me, and even another BP breeder that I consulted, that housing 2 BP's that are the same size is perfectly fine. Not to argue or say who's right and who's wrong... but.... BP babies in petstores are housed together, fed seperately, and shed fine. I have asked my local petstore if I was ok with my current setup.. they said I should be fine as well.
I feed Monty and Benny out of the main tank in seperate tubberware containers that are dark colored so they cant even see eachother. They have both eaten about 7 times and have had full sheds. Like I had said, they are not losing weight... they are in brumation because of the winter months.
When they did eat before the winter came, they ate with no hessitation and kept the food down. I honestly doubt there are any problems with them or that any will occur.
The only thing I'm not thrilled about is the one large water dish... I want to get 2 smaller ones so they can have their own drinking bowls and have the one soaking bowl. After I run out of aspen I am getting ground coconut fibers, it's just easier to clean.
I appreciate all your concern, but I don't see anything to raise concern about. As many as you well-educated people who said that my setup is risky, I've had just as many well-educated people say that my setup is fine. If not many people, more, say that it's fine. I am not sure at this point who is right and who is wrong... I just hope that everything pans out, and that nothing horrible happens.
I'm sorry that this is lengthy, and sorry if I sound like a smart @ss lol. I just wanted to showcase my points and thoughts as well.

[The Serpent Merchant]

No part of the cage should EVER get above 95. A 100 degree surface temperature is way too hot, and 110 floor temp is enough to give your BP brain damage. Saying that your Bp's haven't dug down into their substrate doesn't mean that they never will.

Pet stores keep reptiles in terrible conditions, and their employees generally know absolutely nothing about how to properly care for reptiles.

Even if your snakes did only go of feed because of the cold, having them housed together only decreases the chances of them eating. BP's don't burmate by the way.

[valhalha30]

Ok. Point taken. The temps will be decreased today since I bought a lower-temp uth this weekend. I was going to use it for my Keelback, but it's probably more important to use it for my BP's instead.
I do agree, that perhaps it was a bit too warm... I thought they'd be ok, since it takes a lot of work to get to the glass... its maybe 100 degrees on the hot side with the light on. Maybe I can buy a cooler light instead?
From what I know, they ate fine before winter struck, just like all of my herps. Some of my snakes still eat, some of them went in brumation as well as some of my turtles still eat and some don't. I really doubt that they are stressed out about eachother... they stopped eating after they both shed... and they show no other signs of stress (besides lack of eating, which could be conisdered a sign of stress)
My BP's aren't exactly babies... from what I had asked my BP breeder friend.. he said they are probably more around a year old.
My local petstore is more of a mom & pop sort of place, it's a small buisness that does really well. The manager down there goes to many cross-state reptile shows and is very knowlegible. That's who I had asked. Yes, and I agree.. stores like PetCo are very bad examples of how ANY reptile should be kept. I've heard horror stories about the big stores that make me question the morality of a lot of the workers there.
I get that I may not be raising my BP's to everybody's standards.... but the people I've talked to have those standards, and they've got many many many BP's and have a ton of knowledge that they've collected over years as well.
What's more of a concern to me right now is what to do with my Keelback, aka Indonesian Garter snake. I know enough about him to keep him happy... but I'd like to know more about him and I can't find anything detailed about his species.

[katiekat]

As for housing together that is your decision but most people do not advise it as previous members have stated. So I will not list the negatives again. Also comparing housing mamba's together and ball pythons does not make much sense, they are completely different species with different husbandry needs. Feeding venomous in the same enclosure is something even experienced hot keepers are extremely careful doing, there is a safe way to do so but the snakes are not going to 'share' food. They both eat the same amount and don't compete for food because they are most likely fed at the same time on opposite sides of the enclosure.

Regarding husbandry please get your temps down because 100-110 is way to high for your snakes as others have stated. An unregulated UTH WILL cause burns, please get a thermostat before your snakes get hurt. For hides, try using small cardboard boxes with no bottom or ideally, identical hides from reptile basics on each side of the enclosure, the tubes may be secure but do not provide the same security. Also theres no need to feed outside the enclosure as it will usually stress your snakes out more than necessary.

Sorry If I've repeated anything others have already stated, and please know that all of us here are just trying to help you care for your snakes in best way possible.

[valhalha30]

Yes, I understand.
Again. Forgive me if I sound or sounded defensive and/or like a smart @ss. lol
I just want to let you all know I'm not a negligable owner and that I am aware of certain risks.
For the time being, I don't see any harm being done. I know that once they start getting bigger they should be housed seperately. For now, at their smaller, younger age, I see no major reason to keep them seperate.
Feeding will probably start to resume. I had just attempted to feed my King within this past half an hour, and he willingly ate and took it down with no problems. I see this as a sign that perhaps the other snakes and turtles will may want to start eating again. I will get a thermostat regulated UTH, and swap all of the other snakes' UTH to a thermostat regulated version. It'll cost some cash, but it's worth it in the long run. I'll try feeding today... maybe they'll decide to eat.
Who knows? No one till they have the food in their feeding tanks. Let's all just hope it's not a stress issue with the BP's, and they eat.
I'm going to attempt feeding them today, and attempt feeding the other herps. Worst case scenario, they don't eat and I lose some feeders.
In which case, I will attempt to house them seperately for a few weeks and try feeding them after a week or a week and a half to see if it is indeed a stress issue. You can never know for sure til you test every variable and are able to rule out the current hypotheses.
I appreciate the words of advice, and I will take them. I will try anything out that makes their lives better and happier. Thank you all very very much. I still need help with my Keelback though.... can anyone lend some info please?

[Annarose15]

I want to thank you for your response. Quite a few new bp keepers get very defensive when their practices are challenged, and then the opposing view gets condescending, and it all spirals downward. You, on the other hand, have respected and acknowledged the advice given, and have a plan for if your method seems to cause issues for your snakes. Again, bravo and thank you.

As to your newest addition, try sending a pm to Skiploder. He has extensive knowledge of many different species, and might at least be able to point you in the right direction.