Just switched from live to frozen/thawed; How I did it!

[Slitherous]

Hello all. I'm new to this forum, but not new to herps. Having been away from this passtime, (ie, hobby, business, passion, obsession....), for over a decade, I was absolutely amazed at how popular Ball Pythons have become, (not surprising though). When I last owned a BP the newest thing was an albino, nowadays it seems that the rarest of Ball Pythons is a normal...it seems that morphs have taken over the world.....amazing!!

Anyway, a couple years back when I decided to start keeping herps again I picked up a Cinnamon male hatchling from a breeder I know, and he has been growing and doing fine eating live mice since then. Because he has grown to near-adulthood now, mice were getting to be mere snacks with narry a bulge to mark their passing. I decided it was time to make the switch to larger prey, (rats), but having witnessed many an injury to a snake from a live rat struggling for it's life I decided that feeding frozen/thawed was the right way to go, but how to do the switch? My male had previously refused to eat F/T mice, but I thought that it might be due to my not heating the feeder enough, or??? The breeder I got him from couldn't get him to take F/T either, hence I just kept feeding him live.

I started the process by putting my snake through a feeding routine which included always feeding him in a tub, not in his enclosure. This not only conditioned him over time to expect a feeding when placed in the tub, but also reduced the chances for a mistaken-for-prey bite when doing routine enclosure cleaning. I started doing that decades ago when I owned a pet store and after having an employee badly bitten by a 13' Burmese immediately after cleaning a rabbit cage, (warm, smells like a rabbit...must be a rabbit...POW!). Don't know how many times I told that kid to always, always wash your hands after handling prey and BEFORE reaching into a snakes cage. Ever since that incident I got into the habit of feeding ALL of my snakes outside of their enclosures.

Well, back to the story; to warm the frozen rat, I laid it out to thaw at room temp, then soaked it in hot tap water, (inside a plastic bag), for around 15 minutes keeping the water hot during that time. I have a probe-type refrigeration thermometer that I touched to the rat, and after 15 minutes of soaking in the hot water the surface temp of the feeder was just over 90 degrees. I then took the warmish rat and placed it into a container which had previously been used to hold live mice, and which still had that scent. After a few minutes soaking up that mouse smell I put the rat back into the plastic bag and got it's surface temp back up to 90. Immediately prior to offering the feeder to the snake I blew warm air from a hair dryer over the rat which brought it's temp up to almost 100, then immediately opened the tub and offered it to my snake. To my delight, after some initial hesitation he took the rat. I think that conditioning him to expect a meal when placed in the tub helped the process, as he did show some hesitation, (something that NEVER happened when offered live mice), but his "conditioning" told him that this strange-smelling, warmish object was food, and the rest as they say is history!
My boy is busy digesting his meal, and I can look forward to not having to deal with live, smelly critters to feed him anymore, (not to mention keeping him safe from harm due to a rodent bite). I also look forward to being able to buy bulk frozen rodents, which in the long run will save me some money.

Well, that's the story. I look forward to participating in this forum more often in the future. There's lots of knowledge out there....and knowledge is power!! Cheers!

[Slitherous]

Hmm, been doing some "rainy day" reading since posting the above, and it appears that many keepers pooh pooh the "old wives tale" of feeding snakes outside of their enclosure, and it seems I am in the minority. I've heard many myths, rumors and bad advice going on out there over the years, but feeding a snake outside of a primary residence enclosure is a well-known, and more or less proven husbandry practice. The view that it is "bad husbandry" is wrong, it is a tried-and-true method for handling a captive snake, and like so many other things in life is a matter of preference

Having owned pet stores, owned reptiles for many decades, (other than the last one that is), and having worked in, (as a keeper), and closely with zoos in my day I will ask this......why then do many zoos promote this technique whenever possible, and require their keepers to do exactly that? Yes, however, most zoos feed their "hot" animals in their enclosures to reduce the risk to keepers from unnecessary exposure to the animal, but many feed their larger Boids and Pythons, (and even Colubrids), outside of their residential enclosures as a matter of established routine. They do this for various reasons, but it is an accepted husbandry practice, not an "old wives tale". In zoos a lot of it has to do with keeping the keepers focused on a safety routine to keep them from harm, but a secondary effect is to keep the reptiles predictable to a certain degree, (again, a safety measure for keepers and kept both). Yes, many bites are defensive in nature, but many are also "mistaken-for-prey" responses. I've known many a snake owner who dreaded reaching into their snake's cage because they were afraid of getting bitten, and I always advised them to feed outside of the primary enclosure. Getting bitten is always a possibility when handling any "wild" animal, (and yes, our beloved BP's are indeed "wild"), so anything we can do to mitigate accidents helps not only the snake, but we the keepers as well. Snakes can, and do remember, (not like us, but they do use their Jacobson's organ for more than mere basic senses.....they can "recognize" the difference between prey/non-prey, or between keeper/prey for example), and can be "trained" to a certain degree, (trained to be handled, etc, etc). Maintaining a routine ingrains behaviors into snake and keeper both, and feeding outside of an enclosure is simply a husbandry practice which has merit when dealing with certain snakes. Of course, being wild, and not "domesticated", snakes can bite at any time, for seemingly no reason at all, and if we want to keep reptiles we need to accept that possibility.
Knowing your animal(s) and establishing routines keep both the keeper and the kept safe.

So, you may disagree with me regarding whether to feed in, or out of the cage, but that's my routine and that is what I'll keep doing, (because it works for me and my snake). So, please don't consider me an "old wife" spreading tales!!!!!

[RoseyReps]

While I commend your knowledge and experience with herps, I will have to disagree with you when speaking of Ball Pythons. The reason behind the majority being against feeding in a separate tank is because ball pythons can be picky feeders. Why put the snake through the added stress and possible refusing? Cage aggression is a myth as far as linking home cage to food. As you said, snakes are very much able to differentiate between a human hand and a rat. Assuming you are not playing / handling rats and then reach into your pythons cage.

Just because you have conditioned your BP to feed in the tub, do you think he would not feed in his enclosure? Because that is the same line of thinking as "if I feed him out of his tub, he won't prey bite me in his tub!" Bottom line, if you smell like prey, you have a high risk of being tagged. If its working for you that is awesome, and there is nothing wrong with that. That does not mean it is the best way for ball pythons or general hobby keepers.

Many will even go so far as to say you have a higher chance of getting tagged when using a separate feeding enclosure because you are handling / attempting to handle them while in food mode.

The way zoos and pet stores do things is irrelevant to how hobby keepers practice in my opinion. They are looking out for the possible mistakes of others (smelling like prey).

As I said, because it works for you that is great, but you also should understand that ball python husbandry has come a long way in the past 10 years, and just because it is currently working for you doesn't mean it is the preferred or recommended way.

Welcome to the site, and back to the herping world! We need pics of your cinni

Edit: Congrats on the conversion!

[barbie.dragon]

The whole feed in in the enclosure= accidental prey bite cannot happen unless you reach in exclusively to feed the snake. This is classic conditioning. For classic conditioning to work it has to happen every single time in a consistent manner. If you open a tub or terrarium only to feed your snake and no other time then yes, the snake will be conditioned. However most responsible breeders and pet owners inspect tubs and terrariums almost daily. Because of the inconsistency, the classic conditioning will not work. This is for ALL animals, not just exclusive to snakes. So I wouldn't call it a myth because it can happen but under strange conditions. Most zoos will feed large snakes in a separate tub or area so they can do cleaning around the living quarter without the animal in the enclosure. I don't know how frequently the zookeepers visit the animals, but if its that infrequent then I would not be surprised if they fed in a separate area.

[ewaldrep]

Congrats on the conversion, and I will second the other comments above, expecially the classic conditioning note, very spot on except that classically conditioned behavior is stronger with an interval presentation often.

In addition, just because many poeple do the same thing, and for a long time, does not make it any more valid or true.

[Kinra]

Congrats on the conversion.

Your method of conversion seems a bit over the top though. I recently got 7 of my 10 live feeders to switch to frozen thawed on the first try and my method was a bit simpler. Snakes generally take changes better if they are done in steps. I got my snakes eating live rat pups before I attempted to switch to f/t rats. Yesterday I decided to try to switch to frozen. To prepare my rats I did the following: let rats reach room temp then dunk them in hot water for 2-3 minutes without a bag. One of my live feeders is a carpet who is still eating fuzzy mice so I didn't try to convert him. 8/9 of my ball pythons immediately grabbed the rats. One wouldn't but she's a stubborn eater and one of the ones who grabbed the rat decided he didn't want to swallow it.

I can also speak from experience that you are much more likely to get mistaken for food when feeding in a different enclosure. I used to feed outside of the main cage but every time I tried to put them back they would come after me like I was food. I now feed everything (including my boas) in their enclosures and have yet to be mistaken for food. Some of my babies will strike at me defensively, but that's normal.

If what you are doing works for you, then keep doing it. Animals don't come with manuals.

[Slitherous]

The whole feed in in the enclosure= accidental prey bite cannot happen unless you reach in exclusively to feed the snake. This is classic conditioning. For classic conditioning to work it has to happen every single time in a consistent manner. If you open a tub or terrarium only to feed your snake and no other time then yes, the snake will be conditioned. However most responsible breeders and pet owners inspect tubs and terrariums almost daily. Because of the inconsistency, the classic conditioning will not work. This is for ALL animals, not just exclusive to snakes. So I wouldn't call it a myth because it can happen but under strange conditions. Most zoos will feed large snakes in a separate tub or area so they can do cleaning around the living quarter without the animal in the enclosure. I don't know how frequently the zookeepers visit the animals, but if its that infrequent then I would not be surprised if they fed in a separate area.

The conditioning you mention is what I was counting on. To, in a way, "trick" my BP into accepting an unfamiliar meal, (frozen/thawed). I do, as you mentioned that zoos often do, and use the opportunity of having him occupied elsewhere to do cage maintenance. And, like you mentioned, being that my snake has learned that food is coming when the top is opened on the tub, I'm aware of that and I am cautious when reaching back in after he is done, and for that matter anytime I reach into his cage. I usually reach in and touch him away from his head, and once I touch him he knows he is going to be handled, or that I'm not feeding him. He hardly reacts when I enter his enclosure anymore, so I feel pretty confident in having my daughter, for example, reach in and pick up the snake. Previously he had shown such an aggressive feeding response when his cage was opened she was afraid to reach in, though I was never bitten he was very aggressive and came right up to the door anytime the cage was opened expecting a meal. Now after several months of "conditioning" that is no longer the case. The only reason he is ever in that tub is to feed, and when I am removing him for any other reason I bag him, (which he hates by the way; always squirms around and tries to find a way "outta this bag" til I remove him!). Therefore he now associates the tub with meal time. I've always considered even the friendliest of snakes as having a potential to bite, so I'm always aware of that possibility. Another reason zoos sometimes feed larger animals away from their exhibits is to spare the general public from seeing the snake constricting & eating it's prey. This was a listed policy where I worked, along with various other husbandry issues, (and yes, a good opportunity to do maintenance). They also had lockable hide boxes that doubled as isolated feeding areas for venomous snakes, and likewise used the opportunity to do exhibit maintenance. As far as how often do they "visit" with their animals; I would have to say on a daily basis. We always had at least two keepers present when any exhibit was opened, and most were opened daily for inspection and maintenance of one kind or another. I should mention, during the four years I was associated with that institution, no handler was ever injured in the reptile house, while two keepers were seriously injured in mammal exhibits during that time. I credit that to training, good rules and policies, good exhibit design, and good husbandry.

Like I said, for me it's a matter of preference. I just prefer too feed my animal away from his enclosure for various reasons....I guess I'm just "conditioned" to do it that way!

Thanks for your response!

[Slitherous]

Congrats on the conversion.

Your method of conversion seems a bit over the top though.

If what you are doing works for you, then keep doing it. Animals don't come with manuals.

Over the top is probably right on, unfortunately I'm that way about most everything. And you said it all at the end; it works for me, and that is what counts. I had previously tried feeding mine a frozen/thawed mouse and he wanted nothing to do with it, but that was a while back, so I was pretty determined to get him to switch. I thought my keeping a container with "mouse scent" in it might help, so I combined that with all the other conditioning "tricks" and it seemed to work. Next time I'll try your approach, sounds easier, and far less "over the top".