OK I keep getting flack for keeping my snakes in a rack system

[FIREBLADE]

Wow I didn't intend to cause a war just get some opinions and way's to make none reptile people understand somewhat of why things are done a certain way.
I don't think there is one way that fits all but I do believe getting input from people who have kept them successfully Ball Pythons that is for me anyway is important I like learning and finding better ways.
Which is why I joined in the first place to meet people and discuss the care of Ball Pythons.

[Crotalids]

As long as the snake is healthy and doesn't have any problems who cares if its a tub, rack or tank? I keep all of mine in tanks and they're all doing fine. A friend if mine has all of his in racks and they're all doing fine. In the end its all personal opinion anyway so why argue with someone who doesn't do it your way?

I see it more as a discussion, that's what forums are for.

But this is a Ball python forum on a ball python husbandry subforum topic.
We are all ball keepers talking about our particular species in a rack system. You're the only one who has really gone off topic with hots. What applies to one species may or may not be applied to one species.

And yes. Its a matter of opinion, but you still say your way is right and we are wrong. I even quoted that in my last post......


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

No, I'm not talking about husbandry. I'm not saying every snake should be kept at 25degC am I? I'm saying every snake should be kept in a naturalistic enclosure. Me saying my way is right, is just my opinion, I don't see what's the problem there.

Because YOUR way is more acceptable and/or right simply because this is how it's done by you and the majority of people on european forums?

Who am I? well I am definitely not someone judging others and being condescending to them because of the way they keep THEIR animals, but I am definitely not one to hold my tongue when someone acts like you either, you don't see me pass judgment on the way you keep your animals do you?

Again many successful ways to keep animals so long their needs are met........... or maybe only one way so long it's yours

Anyway enough time wasted on you.

Please feel free to try and find something in my enclosures to pass judgement on, that you or anybody else does better than me. From the pictures I posted earlier I think you can see that my animals are kept in the best conditions possible.

[TessadasExotics]

Oh really? How about i take a picture of me handling one of my Gaboon's for you tomorrow? And you can take a few pics of you handling some Gab's also to prove you have experience with them.

They are not identical in care and behavior at all. Nasicornis are incredibly prone to stress, and in general are far more nervous than Gaboons. If you're so experienced in this matter please do tell me on the whole what is the different between the two Gaboons in temperament.

Please tell me how you would keep each of the three species, Bitis nasicornis, Bitis rhinoceros and Bitis gabonica - The two gaboons listed, are two very different species in themselves.

Again you proved you don't know much about the topic. Venom toxicity from the three Bitis species listed above is low. It is the yield that makes them dangerous and the size of the fangs, allowing for envenomation deep into muscle tissue and into main arteries.

True, they are lazy. But you obviously have not witnessed a pissed off Gaboon, their burst of speed are short but powerful, and with their muscles they make it almost impossible for you to hook them properly.

hmmm ok they have a low venom toxicity. Clinical aspects of envenoming by Bitis Nasicornis

It is not only the yield but the potency of the venom. There care is very similar. As far as stress goes in the B. Nasicornis...... My ball pythons stress easier than any of our Rhino's did.
Unfortunately Venomoids are not legal to own here in CT. When we did we lived in Texas. One day we will move back to TX and will get back into Rhino's as they are one of my favorite snakes.

I have had more problems keeping Ball Pythons than we ever did with Rhino's. Go figure.

[John1982]

You nor i can definitively say that a natural enclosure doesn't benefit the snake.

I think you're naive to think a snake doesn't receive mental stimulation from a more elaborate set up.

I will assume you have run tests on neurological activity in the brain of snakes when in a rub with no decor etc, compared to a full on naturalistic viv? Like i said i think it's silly to assume that snakes 'feel' no benefit from a more interactive environment.

I'd love to see your data on the neurological activity in snakes kept in naturalistic vivaria as opposed to plain and simple. In lieu of said studies I'll accept an explanation as to why you can make assumptions in regards to the "happiness" of your animals whereas we can not.

Keeping snakes on newspaper, doesn't mean you're less likely to harbor critters.

Disagree, I can't remember ever hearing of someone unintentionally introducing snake mites from their daily newspaper.

you can't really compare a snake to a superior race like ourselves

Race, really?

It's got nothing to do with what i keep my snakes in, you could keep yours in a cardboard box for all i care. But it's the way in which so many keepers are satisfied with providing just the bare minimum. This is my opinion, and nothing for you to be offended by, this is what i don't understand about so many reptile keepers you all get worked up so easily.

More chuckles how every time you mention "not an insult" or "don't take this the wrong way" it's invariably followed by an insult.

We have a voice and an opinion for a reason, to voice it.

Your crusade that turned this thread into a debate would have been better served in a thread of your own. Can you honestly say that you didn't predict this outcome? Can't say I'm upset though, I've enjoyed the read thus far.

No snake in the world likes large open spaces.

Wrong, there are plenty of sight hunters that can often be found in large, open spaces - racers and coachwhips immediately come to mind.

That isn't evolution. Evolution would be if they developed something entirely new, to adapt to the paper substrate - for example if there was a change in their belly scales.

I think ventral scales would be a poor way to determine if a snake had evolved to a life on newspaper as snakes from all types of environment are more or less the same in that regard.

Don't take this the wrong way, but you're acting as if Royals are a hard species to keep. Anyone with half a brain cell can keep them, hence why they're often touted as a 'starter' snake.

Another "don't take this the wrong way" followed by an insult - surprise, surprise. You should start telling people to take it the wrong way if you aren't intentionally insulting them.

Anyone with half a brain cell can keep hots, even Gabbies or Rhino's. Which, by the way, are not "burrowers". They are slow and sluggish and like to hide in leaves or brush. They are ambush hunters. Hence the pretty colors and patterns which help them blend into the leaves on the ground.

I don't think it takes much smarts at all to do something that's already been done. It's a matter of following directions - about as hard as tracing a picture, if a bit more involved.

[angllady2]

Question?

If every single snake ever captured in the wild here, or imported into the United States HAD to be kept in a naturalistic enclosure, do you really think we would have so many animals to enjoy now?

While I do agree that no snake deserves a poor enclosure that does not meet it's basic needs, I find your insistence that they all need a naturalistic enclosure ridiculous.

Until you can provide me with copies of brain activity from a snake of any kind kept in an expensive and impressive natural enclosure and copies of brain activity from the same type of snake kept in a tub on newspaper and you can PROVE the naturalistic enclosure is without a doubt a necessity, I continue to say you are making your snakes more human that what they are. Period. Just because it is pleasing to you, you cannot prove it is more pleasing to the snake. You can claim it is, but not prove it.

Having had experience with keeping ball pythons in large and expensive highly decorated and very attractive enclosures, AND experience with keeping them in tubs in a rack system. I can say that with my own animals, as long as the environmental needs were met, they didn't care two figs how large or fancy or small and plain their enclosures were. Now, I myself found it took much more effort on my part to maintain said environmental needs in large and fancy enclosures. This constant and excessive effort began to diminish my enjoyment of my snakes. Over time, I began slacking off in maintenance and my snakes suffered for it. When I realized I was becoming one of those people who neglect their snakes to the point of poor health, I decided snake keeping was not for me.

A few years later, I decided to try again. This time, with knowledge gleaned from extensive research, I decided to give a rack and tub system a try. I found maintenance so much easier, and meeting environmental needs so much less time consuming, I could devote more time to enjoying my animals. Now tell me, as long as my snakes basic needs of food, shelter, temperature and humidity, and cleanliness are being met, why is a rack system so wrong? If my ball pythons required a swingset in their tub to have their needs met, then I guess I'd have to go with a big enclosure, but to my knowledge they don't use swings, so why is how I do things so very wrong?

If you can prove beyond a doubt that any snake NEEDS a natural enclosure, I'd be very interested to see your results and how they were reached. Since you cannot do this, I am disinclined to acquiesce to your request I change how I keep my snakes. If you can prove that a ball python kept in a naturalistic enclosure is one bit happier or healthier than one kept in a correctly maintained tub, please post your findings for us all to study, and then perhaps you can convince us how we do things is not suitable. Until such time, I will continue to keep my animals as I see fit, and you keep your as you see fit. But kindly stop beating people over the head with your opinion.

Gale

[Ridinandreptiles]

some needed smilies...if only this forum had the popcorn one

[Capray]

some needed smilies...if only this forum had the popcorn one

You mean the one?

[Ridinandreptiles]

You mean the one?

i totally didnt see that

[ewaldrep]

Wow I didn't intend to cause a war just get some opinions and way's to make none reptile people understand somewhat of why things are done a certain way.
I don't think there is one way that fits all but I do believe getting input from people who have kept them successfully Ball Pythons that is for me anyway is important I like learning and finding better ways.
Which is why I joined in the first place to meet people and discuss the care of Ball Pythons.

I hope you got your answer before the thread got hijacked My daughter bp stays in the hide all day long, and sometimes at night I see her exloring the 10g. I plan on getting a large enclosure so my daughter will hopefully stay engaged in her animal care, but tubs in racks seem fine as well. Best wishes!

[Skiploder]

I find it interesting that - to use the term of a long departed member on BP-Net whom I enjoyed immensely - the current dogma decrees that we can bash glass tanks and setups that are deemed too large , but when someone has the gall to speak in the same tone about tupperware or rubbermaid we get our collective panties in a tight wedgie.

Yes, ball pythons are nocturnal, yes ball pythons like the security of an enclosed space and yes a piece of tupperware cuts the straightest path to providing an almost idiot proof solution.

But, ball pythons do emerge from their mounds and burrows during the night and among other things they actively hunt, climb trees (yes climb trees) and roam in search of prey, mates, water, etc.

So as long as someone correctly provides for the essential security requirements in a larger, naturalistic vivarium, then, in my humble opinion, they have improved upon the simple tupperware container.

Keep this in mind when touting the mighty plastic tub as a snake husbandry tool:

Oftentimes, we tend to recommend what works for ball pythons to people seeking info on keeping other species. I have sold cribos and other colubrids to people who have been brainwashed that they can be kept in a plastic box. Anyone who keeps large pits also is aware that they can reach sizes at adulthood that negate the possibility of cramming them into all but the largest piece of houseware (the VE175), yet a simple search on this forum will see that what works for the Linus Van Pelts (ball pythons) of the snake world is often inflicted on other species that need space to be healthy.

The routine and predictable bashers of the large enclosure or glass tank are collectively more guilty of ignorant and mind-numbing intolerance than our new friend, Crotalids. Outside of the cozy confines of BP-Net there exists a whole world of herpers who gently poke fun at the ponzi cult of the mutant royal python and the often simplistic and basic ways they are kept. Again, these husbandry practices are fine and serve the basic needs of the species, but a more comprehensive and naturally correct setup would include a larger enclosure that incorporates ALL of the husbandry parameters - including a humid and secure retreat.

Even in the 60s and 70s there were behavioral studies done on how husbandry affects the stress levels of reptiles. The psychological and physiological studies documented how in smaller enclosures, routine husbandry actions lead to greater measured stress levels. Greater, yes, detrimental - no.

In short, zookeepers and even the esteemed Mr. Conant observed that a larger vivaria with more space often lessened the stress associated with cleaning, as it allowed for slightly less strict cleaning regimes which prevented the elimination of familiar smells during cleaning. In other words, the health risks associated with leaving traces of fecal material in a large enclosure were lessened, and that when a snake could still smell his own funk after cleaning, the animal was less stressed.

In other words, in the case of BP-Net vs. Mr. Crotalids, both parties are guilty of being judgmental and yet both parties make valid points. Unfortunately, neither party is 100% correct. One party espouses the efficient use of space to provide the bare necessities for success with the aim being economy and ultimately convenience to the keeper, and the other is passionately (and maybe a little aggressively) stating that the goal of the keeper should be to exceed, not just meet the goal.

I find it a bit Quixotic that when faced with the dilemma of housing two ball pythons in one enclosure, the collective dogma screeches in protest that the only reason for doing so is for the benefit of the keeper. However when someone touts the use of a naturalistic enclosure or a large (gasp!) glass tank, they also also wail about how it is not optimal for the keeper. In other words, the masses cannot coherently reason outside of the box - or in this case the tupperware tub.