Hets out of non-virgin females

[Serpent_Nirvana]

These are problems I always said I'd try to avoid with breeding, but sometimes your collection takes you down different roads than expected ...

This year I bred my albino het Joliff axanthic male to a het Joliff axanthic ph albino female. Unfortunately I didn't get any albinos, but I did get a really neat reduced pattern Joliff axanthic.

Now, I am about 90% sure that the babies are his, but here's the kicker ... She was bred to a double het (Joliff/albino) male the year before. While I think it's doubtful that she retained sperm from last year's breeding, it is possible that the double het is the sire since either male could've produced the Joliffs.

I'm planning on marketing these babies as "90% probable het albino" or something to that effect, because I've seen and heard enough sperm retention stories that I don't feel I can guarantee parenting.

My question is more about next year's babies (if she goes again this year) ... Or the year after. After how many breedings would you feel it's safe to rule out sperm retention (and thus, say with relative certainty that the albino is the sire)?

And, because threads are more fun with pictures ...

[coldbloodaddict]

I would just sell them as Normals...Definitely would not label them 90% hets...That's just going to confuse people...

If you think she may have retained sperm from the previous breeding call them what they would be...50% poss. Hets...

[snakesRkewl]

This is why I only breed my clown to females that produced for me last year, or virgin females.
He does not go to females that didn't take the year before or to new females that I don't know their history.

If you think she may have retained sperm from the previous breeding call them what they would be...50% poss. Hets...

What Jon said, no guaranteeing the babies means they are 50% pos hets.

[aalomon]

I bred my pastel female to a mojave and spotnose male in 2009, no spotnose babies. I sold the spotnose male later that year so I know she was accidentally placed with him later. This last season, surprise, surprise...a spotnose popped out of one of the eggs.

[RandyRemington]

We really need a commercial paternity test. I think parthenogenesis may be fairly common so even virgin females aren't a guarantee. And I don't know that the female producing the year before increases your odds that she used up all the sperm and isn't retaining some although I can see why breeding and not producing could make you expect retention could be even more likely.

[joebad976]

I had a similar situation this year. I bred a pair of albinos in 2011 but female never laid eggs. Bred her to a pied this year. Out of 5 eggs I hatched out 3 albinos and 2 double hets. I am not selling the albinos as het pied because I believe it was sperm retention. I will probably put the pied to another albino this year to Prove/disprove whether or not he is also het albino.

[Serpent_Nirvana]

I appreciate all your input ... Normals they'll be then! (Well, 66% poss het Joliff axanthic, 50% poss het albino ... Which, in today's market, may as well be normals.)

I had plans to only breed visual x virgin and never ever mess around with this sort of thing, but I had nothing at all to pair with my male albino last year and these two girls came along that were het Joliff axanthic poss het albino -- they'd been bred to a double het male only and didn't produce albinos (5 eggs each), so I thought it was worth a whack for the price of a het Joliff only. Plus (more importantly) they are both very reduced-pattern, which is a major focus for my breeding program ...

In the future, all of my hets/p-hets will only ever be bred to visuals ONLY -- this was just kind of a fun little "dinking" foray, which actually gave me one of the two things I was really hoping for (the first was albinos, obviously, but the second was an axanthic with the same totally reduced/banded pattern as the sire -- and I got that!)

Aaloman, I had to read that twice ha ha -- so your mojave retained the spotnose's sperm for three years? Was she bred to anything else in the interim?

Randy -- Definitely an interesting thought ..! I have a lot more to say on it but this reply's got too long already, ha.