Narrow minded or am I asking too much?

[Skiploder]

Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.

Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.
Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.

So.......you are not breaking new ground here, you're not even repeating ONE study (I've seen at least three), so what are you even asking?

Let me ask you this: when a vet does a trans tracheal wash to look for a bacterial RI, how do they know what normal flora is if this information isn't already widely available?

[mackynz]

I don't think anyone was claiming to be a scientist. No one is trying to make anyone hand over their animals for study. They only asked. And the fear that this would give cause to damage the hobby because E. coli is scary then I strongly encourage you to read up on what is lurking on your keyboard right now, your cellphone, door handles, any living thing in your house, the air you are breathing. All of it full of dangerous microbes with the potential to kill. All of it documented. We don't outlaw cats for carrying germs. If we outlawed everything that had the potential to harm us we would all be dead. If you think they would try to outlaw BPs for having E. coli in their mouths then I think they have some bigger problems to tackle first. Like cows, they're just chock full of E. coli, yet I have easy access to their meat. So they would first be working on outlawing these deadly organisms in our grocery stores before focusing down on a select group.

- - - Updated - - -

So.......you are not breaking new ground here, you're not even repeating ONE study (I've seen at least three), so what are you even asking?

Let me ask you this: when a vet does a trans tracheal wash to look for a bacterial RI, how do they know what normal flora is if this information isn't already widely available?

If it is so widely available and at least 3 studies have been done could you link me to them? It shouldn't be too much of a bother to find them since they are so widely available. It's just that I can only seem to find one.

[wolfy-hound]

Did you actually read any responses?

Do you really think anyone here DOESN'T know that all the bacteria exists already? We're not talking about us, we're talking about what the AR groups are going to rush to the media to twist up to throw at the public.

Salmonella exists EVERYWHERE. Yet when a report that salmonella is "insert product, place, critter, whatever" there's a huge amount of fuss that it's dangerous, 'think of the CHILDREN!' and the public thinks that the product/place/whatever is MORE dangerous than before. You're talking about E coli, which is a form of bacteria that has put numerous people in hospital and killed folks. It doesn't matter that 99% of E coli is perfectly harmless. It's the title in the news. It's the public perception that a SCIENTIFIC paper proved that nasty slimy snakes carry E coli and will make everyone sick and remember all those turtles that made everyone sick and won't anyone think of the CHILDREN?

Somehow you think that because studies exist that say cats have nasty mouths that it means that you can do another study proving how filthy snake mouths are and it won't affect snakes because.... what? Because the 30 million fuzzy kitty lovers/owners will also love snakes so much that they'll equate a snake's dirty mouth with their fuzzy lovey cutey kitty?

Since other studies already exist, why add to them? Since vets(good herp vets) culture mouth swabs to check for infection/issues.. I'd think that they know approximately what's okay to be in there, what's not okay and how amounts of each should be found. Otherwise, they're staring into a microscope at confusion and throwing a dart at a board as to what they should treat, right?

Next up, you'll be convinced us about how we should totally pair up with HSUS/PETA because they could tons of good because they save pets.

[Stewart_Reptiles]

I don't think anyone was claiming to be a scientist. No one is trying to make anyone hand over their animals for study. They only asked. And the fear that this would give cause to damage the hobby because E. coli is scary then I strongly encourage you to read up on what is lurking on your keyboard right now, your cellphone, door handles, any living thing in your house, the air you are breathing. All of it full of dangerous microbes with the potential to kill. All of it documented. We don't outlaw cats for carrying germs. If we outlawed everything that had the potential to harm us we would all be dead. If you think they would try to outlaw BPs for having E. coli in their mouths then I think they have some bigger problems to tackle first. Like cows, they're just chock full of E. coli, yet I have easy access to their meat. So they would first be working on outlawing these deadly organisms in our grocery stores before focusing down on a select group.

Seems to me that you are not grasping what has been going on those past couple of years, cat owners do not have a target on their back (well not yet) snake owners do because right now they are HSUS easiest target. Right now in case you are not aware there are people who want to take away your right to own reptiles, no one want to take away your phone or your keyboard

You are comparing apple and oranges here.

[PsychD_Student]

If it is so widely available and at least 3 studies have been done could you link me to them? It shouldn't be too much of a bother to find them since they are so widely available. It's just that I can only seem to find one.

Right?


This is the deal. If I was doing something similar to the original poster, would I use BPs from people's personal collections? No. That wouldn't hold much internal validity due to the high variability in environmental conditions between specimens. I would be getting a decent sized sample of ball pythons in order to have as much control as possible in the study. All these cantankerous folks should relax. No one is attacking your intelligence, nor are they trying to take away your reptiles--- except the USFWS. The fact that you're so defensive and aggressive is kind of baffling.

Now the individual asking about these is most likely not someone with funding, and may even be an undergraduate student. If that is the situation, I can empathize on the limited resources available for a study as an undergrad and can see the reasoning behind searching for sample specimens from community volunteers. OF COURSE these proposed volunteers have every right to say no. That's a personal right you have as an individual. But to attack the research itself is preposterous and lacks sound reasoning. Research is good. Bottom line.

If a study has been published one or two times, then replication of a study wouldn't be a bad idea, especially if it was simply for the experience of a new research who may conduct further studies that hold more important implications. Now if that is this individual's dissertation and it has been conducted before, thats on him/her. But if people's political agendas are getting in the way of conducting research (consciously or unconsciously for people with poor insight), then thats unfortunate.

[mackynz]

Seems to me that you are not grasping what has been going on those past couple of years, cat owners do not have a target on their back (well not yet) snake owners do because right now they are HSUS easiest target. Right now in case you are not aware there are people who want to take away your right to own reptiles, no one want to take away your phone or your keyboard

You are comparing apple and oranges here.

Right, and why do their attempts keep getting shot down? Because they don't actually hold up when it comes down to it. I know apples are scary to some people and if they are uninformed they might think that since they have vitamin C in them they should be outlawed. That's where groups like USARK, PIJAC and scientists come in and inform them that vitamin C will not be harming them in this form and that the oranges they love so dearly also contain vitamin C.

We shouldn't hinder any scientific progress just because some people are too ignorant to find out what the results actually mean. If we stopped every time someone said "Hey! I don't really like what you are doing!" our society would be nowhere.

It is the job of the people passing laws to know all aspects of the argument. It is THEIR JOB, we should not stifle progress, be it this or any other because we fear that men in suits might not like it.

[PsychD_Student]

Seems to me that you are not grasping what has been going on those past couple of years, cat owners do not have a target on their back (well not yet) snake owners do because right now they are HSUS easiest target. Right now in case you are not aware there are people who want to take away your right to own reptiles, no one want to take away your phone or your keyboard

You are comparing apple and oranges here.

I can empathize with what you're talking about, but I feel like you're going out on a limb with a study like this.

I understand everyone is sensitive because of the most recent issues concerning the species that have been targeted recently. But I feel like the reasons those animals were targeted is VERY different than ball pythons or corn snakes. I think they were much too harsh with the law passed concerning these species, but I agree TO A MINIMAL degree that there should be some regulations concerning dangerous wildlife, such as there are with lions and other large predators. The average citizen shouldn't own a pet alligator, lion, or 20 foot long retic. However, to make such harsh, general, and sweeping laws regarding these animals was ridiculous. We should have found a compromise, similar to venomous snake permits in many states.

Nevertheless, I'm not worried about the future security of my ball python collection.

[Annarose15]

I can empathize with what you're talking about, but I feel like you're going out on a limb with a study like this.

I understand everyone is sensitive because of the most recent issues concerning the species that have been targeted recently. But I feel like the reasons those animals were targeted is VERY different than ball pythons or corn snakes. I think they were much too harsh with the law passed concerning these species, but I agree TO A MINIMAL degree that there should be some regulations concerning dangerous wildlife, such as there are with lions and other large predators. The average citizen shouldn't own a pet alligator, lion, or 20 foot long retic. However, to make such harsh, general, and sweeping laws regarding these animals was ridiculous. We should have found a compromise, similar to venomous snake permits in many states.

Nevertheless, I'm not worried about the future security of my ball python collection.

Sooo...you think Burms and African Rocks were targeted for a reason other than being snakes? And that, when the "reasons" are sensationalized on TV, BPs will be immune...due to logic and facts? Is the destruction of ecosystems why there are government-sponsored and televised "stray cat round-ups" now, just like with rattlesnakes? Ignorance (or is it arrogance?) in the guise of a search for knowledge is a dangerous thing.

To the OP - I don't have an issue with research or investigation for the sake of learning firsthand, UNLESS it has an obvious detriment to something I care about, and can potentially and in all likelihood add fuel to the fear-mongering that is already a very dangerous political tool for the HSUS and PETA.

[Skiploder]

I don't think anyone was claiming to be a scientist. No one is trying to make anyone hand over their animals for study. They only asked. And the fear that this would give cause to damage the hobby because E. coli is scary then I strongly encourage you to read up on what is lurking on your keyboard right now, your cellphone, door handles, any living thing in your house, the air you are breathing. All of it full of dangerous microbes with the potential to kill. All of it documented. We don't outlaw cats for carrying germs. If we outlawed everything that had the potential to harm us we would all be dead. If you think they would try to outlaw BPs for having E. coli in their mouths then I think they have some bigger problems to tackle first. Like cows, they're just chock full of E. coli, yet I have easy access to their meat. So they would first be working on outlawing these deadly organisms in our grocery stores before focusing down on a select group.

- - - Updated - - -



If it is so widely available and at least 3 studies have been done could you link me to them? It shouldn't be too much of a bother to find them since they are so widely available. It's just that I can only seem to find one.

I've done that link thing in the past and the thing where I scan and e-mail articles and chapters of books in my possession to those that ask. Usually all I ask in exchange is that we have an off-line discussion about the information I've provided as repayment and I don't think I've ever received that courtesy in return so fudge on that idea. I'd much rather have someone jump up and down and claim the information isn't out there and then wait awhile and spring it on them in bits and pieces. Let's just say that there are God knows how many studies regarding the normal bacterium in dozens and dozens of snake species. Slapping it into jstor, google or ncbi isn't going to cut it.

For example, who did the first studies on how enclosure cleaning in captive snakes often triggers defecation? Or how doing a less thorough cleaning job doesn't induce the same behavior? Ain't gonna find that one on the interwebs. But that does not mean it does not exist or is widely know by people who have cut their teeth in this hobby.

Or how to sex rhamphiophis rubropunctatus. Find me that one on the interwebs...........

Google is not the end all be all research compendium. Before people got their knowledge so cheaply off the internet, you used to have access to zoo libraries and old books and actually read instead of cherry picking and regurgitating. One of the cool things about captive breeding some oddball species is that some of your clients open up their databases to you.

You want to figure out the sources, start thinking about who the information is important to and why they would need it. Ask yourself the question - how does a qualified herp vet distinguish between normal bacteria levels in tracheal washes if those reference values were not well known? Somewhere in this reply, I've given you a hint on another name to research. I probably understated the amount of studies out there. The OP is replicating something that has already been replicated and re-replicated. Good luck.

[mackynz]

Sooo...you think Burms and African Rocks were targeted for a reason other than being snakes?

YES YES YES YES YES YES YES HOLY FREAKING CRAP YES

They were absolutely targeted for other reasons than being snakes. Do you understand what an invasive species is? What they do? Are Asian carp being targeted because they are fish? Are zebra muscles being targeted for being muscles? NO. Invasive species are targeted because they are a threat to local ecosystems. This doesn't apply in places they can't survive, but they ABSOLUTELY were targeted for reasons other than being snakes.

Do I agree with the ban? No I don't, I don't think that a few crappy keepers should be able to ruin it for everyone.