Feeding Question

[satomi325]

I have heard of the ferret thing. The difference here I would say is that the food item is the same -> if they imprint on a rat they're still getting a rat.

AK - I hear people say that in these threads. I haven't seen a single person confirm your claim (beyond very small hatchling snakes). The closest I've heard is what Slim just described which, while inhumane from a domestic pet standpoint, is sustaining the snake's life. My pewter was 150g and a year old when I bought it and it has no permanent effects and is now gaining weight rapidly.

They have the know-how to sustain life. They have genetics telling them to eat food BY OPPORTUNISTIC MEANS that is millions and millions of years old. They eat dead things in the wild if they need to. In captivity, we simply measure NEED differently. I don't disagree with that notion.

If I ever get a multiple refusal snake I will most definitely feed it live. Here's the thing, though. My 4 snakes are all on F/T now and haven't skipped a meal. If at some point they choose to do that, I'm going to wait until they take F/T again to feed them. Why? They know it's food and they know what to do. They're not THAT stupid.

The point I was making with the ferret is that animals will starve themselves to death. To say animals won't is an ignorant statement.

Please show me your sources that Wild ball pythons scavenge already dead prey.

I think if a snake takes f/t regularly at one point and goes off feed for whatever reason(breeding/winter/whatever), you have a good chance that it will eat f/t again. However, what about a snake who has never encountered f/t? What if they refuse time and time again. Will you keep trying f/t and only f/t. Let me know how that snake fairs physically if it keeps refusing food based on food type while it will clearly take live. Who knows how long a snake can refuse a meal just because it only eats live and you want to feed it f/t. You've been lucky so far that your own personal snakes have been so easy to switch.

Not feeding your pet because it refuses food based on food type is poor keeping and almost cruel. You're physically offering food. But thats not feeding. The snake is not eating.Yes snakes can last a long time without feeding. Days, weeks, months, up to year. However, that doesn't mean it shouldn't eat if it will willingly eat something else immediately.
In my opinion, as pet owners, it is our duty to do what's best for the animal regardless of personal preference. And I don't think starving a snake to take f/t out of desperation and starvation is one of them.

[AK907]

I have heard of the ferret thing. The difference here I would say is that the food item is the same -> if they imprint on a rat they're still getting a rat.

AK - I hear people say that in these threads. I haven't seen a single person confirm your claim (beyond very small hatchling snakes). The closest I've heard is what Slim just described which, while inhumane from a domestic pet standpoint, is sustaining the snake's life. My pewter was 150g and a year old when I bought it and it has no permanent effects and is now gaining weight rapidly.

They have the know-how to sustain life. They have genetics telling them to eat food BY OPPORTUNISTIC MEANS that is millions and millions of years old. They eat dead things in the wild if they need to. In captivity, we simply measure NEED differently. I don't disagree with that notion.

If I ever get a multiple refusal snake I will most definitely feed it live. Here's the thing, though. My 4 snakes are all on F/T now and haven't skipped a meal. If at some point they choose to do that, I'm going to wait until they take F/T again to feed them. Why? They know it's food and they know what to do. They're not THAT stupid.

I don't have a problem with f/t if your snake willingly takes it, but I most definitely have seen cases of them starving themselves to death. I worked in pet care for a certain major pet store chain that refused to feed live. During my two years there I saw several ball pythons who starved themselves to death because they refused the f/t they were offered. Sure some took f/t without an issue or with a little persuasion on our part, but some simply refused and died because of it. We aren't talking a quick death, either. We're talking months and months of slowly wasting away. Can I back these up with pictures and vet records? No, because these weren't my animals, but I know what I saw. Now other species of snakes seem to have a little more brains in their skulls and will usually switch very readily (insert most colubrids). Had a few of those that were picky, but shortly after almost always switched without an issue. Your claim that ALL can be changed might hold a little water with other species such as corns and kings, but not with all species.

I tried playing hardball with a few of our own animals as well. We have an amazon tree boa that will only eat live, and they aren't exactly known for being picky eaters. I tried waiting her out once for months trying to get her on f/t because we don't always have live feeders in her size. Well it came down to us having to offer her live and making special exceptions to always have live her size on hand because she will NOT eat f/t.

A similar story would be a ball python we had that would only eat all white female mice. Put a brown mouse in there, she would turn her nose up at it. Put a male mouse in there. Nope. Put an all white female rat in there. Negative. Put the tastiest looking african soft fur you ever saw in there. Would not even look at it. Put an all white female mouse in there. History and begging for seconds.

The point I was making with the ferret is that animals will starve themselves to death. To say animals won't is an ignorant statement.

Please show me your sources that Wild ball pythons scavenge already dead prey.

I think if a snake takes f/t regularly at one point and goes off feed for whatever reason(breeding/winter/whatever), you have a good chance that it will eat f/t again. However, what about a snake who has never encountered f/t? What if they refuse time and time again. Will you keep trying f/t and only f/t. Let me know how that snake fairs physically if it keeps refusing food based on food type while it will clearly take live. Who knows how long a snake can refuse a meal just because it only eats live and you want to feed it f/t. You've been lucky so far that your own personal snakes have been so easy to switch.

Not feeding your pet because it refuses food based on food type is poor keeping and almost cruel. You're physically offering food. But thats not feeding. The snake is not eating.Yes snakes can last a long time without feeding. Days, weeks, months, up to year. However, that doesn't mean it shouldn't eat if it will willingly eat something else immediately.
In my opinion, as pet owners, it is our duty to do what's best for the animal regardless of personal preference. And I don't think starving a snake to take f/t out of desperation and starvation is one of them.

I agree with you 100%!

Like I said above, I don't have a problem with f/t if your snake will willingly take it, but I flat out refuse to force the switch on any animal if it puts them in harms way and affects their quality of life. To do so is outright cruelty in my opinion. We are responsible for their well being and we owe it to them meet their needs, even if it isn't what we want.

[Stewart_Reptiles]

It's about

Being knowledgeable regarding your choices.

Feeding responsibly.

Feeding what work for you and your snakes

Feeding what is most convenient.

When my collection was under 10 snakes I was feeding F/T exclusively, at the time it was not worth the hassle to deal with live rodents whether it was having to go and buy them weekly or start breeding, so I was buying rats in bulk and always had what I needed.

Of course the collection grew and I started hatching snakes therefore I started to feel the need to start breeding my own feeders.

Feeding live is fast and convenient and anything uneaten goes back to their enclosures rather than the trash if I was feeding F/T

There are still some animal that I feed F/T, my hognose (so I don't keep too many mice for too long), my blood who eat all the retired rats I store in my freezer, and my bulls and hondos who eats whatever surplus I need gone, and very few BP.

This way I feed what is convenient but also never have a surplus of animals that are too large to be fed as they are euthanized and froze.

Anyway find what works for you and what you are comfortable with.

[BallJohnny]

Wow wasn't kidding when you said it would be a debate lol. Ya im ok with feeding him live, i've raised lizards(chinese water dragons) feed them live. I have nothing agaisnt mice just they are food for my favroit type of animal lol. Going to stick with live, probably going to try feeding him next week to. Seems alot of people here say a 2 1/2 should probably eat once every week.

[AK907]

Wow wasn't kidding when you said it would be a debate lol. Ya im ok with feeding him live, i've raised lizards(chinese water dragons) feed them live. I have nothing agaisnt mice just they are food for my favroit type of animal lol. Going to stick with live, probably going to try feeding him next week to. Seems alot of people here say a 2 1/2 should probably eat once every week.

Yup, the general consensus is 10-15% of your snakes body weight every 5-7 days. As they get older you can cut back a bit because their metabolisms slow down.

[Stewart_Reptiles]

Seems alot of people here say a 2 1/2 should probably eat once every week.

If it's a male a small rat 55/65 grams once a week will be more than enough.

If it's a female a small to medium rat 55/125 grams (depending on her current size) once a week will be enough.

[MrLang]

The point I was making with the ferret is that animals will starve themselves to death. To say animals won't is an ignorant statement.

Ferrets aren't really particularly similar to their natural counterparts. They've been bred to be... well... slow. I still wouldn't disagree with what you said here except that my statement is ignorant. I'm quite well informed and started my response by saying I was aware of what you are talking about. Slop and kibble are not the same as offering a ferret a live vs dead snake

Please show me your sources that Wild ball pythons scavenge already dead prey.

I'm at work and I'm not going to start linking internet junk, but do some research on what an opportunistic feeder or hunter is. It's a biology term and I have read in enough places that ball pythons are opportunistic to believe it. Someone feel free to correct me with their own facts if I'm wrong.

I think if a snake takes f/t regularly at one point and goes off feed for whatever reason(breeding/winter/whatever), you have a good chance that it will eat f/t again. However, what about a snake who has never encountered f/t? What if they refuse time and time again. Will you keep trying f/t and only f/t.

You quoted me in this response. I addressed this very clearly. Let me know if there are still questions after you read what I wrote and you quoted.

Let me know how that snake fairs physically if it keeps refusing food based on food type while it will clearly take live.

You guys chatted? Just because you can trigger the snake's instinct better with a live animal, doesn't mean it's hungry. If you're tricking a snake into eating, you're essentially force feeding.

Who knows how long a snake can refuse a meal just because it only eats live and you want to feed it f/t.

Indeed. That is the question I believe I have asked multiple times. I'm asking for someone with direct experience to describe it to me.

You've been lucky so far that your own personal snakes have been so easy to switch.

I know, like I said I am willing to accept that I'm coming from a limited set of knowledge and experience. I'm only using facts to support myself, though, and labeling the rest as speculation.

Not feeding your pet because it refuses food based on food type is poor keeping and almost cruel. You're physically offering food. But thats not feeding. The snake is not eating.Yes snakes can last a long time without feeding. Days, weeks, months, up to year. However, that doesn't mean it shouldn't eat if it will willingly eat something else immediately.

I never advocated starving an animal. Would you advocate obesity? These are a species that choose with great regularity to refuse all meal types for periods of up to 6 months or more. As long as you offer food, it's not cruelty, it's feeding. Like I said in the response you quoted, if I had multiple refusals I would probably try live. That doesn't mean 'the snake WON'T eat F/T' and it also doesn't mean I've given up on switching it.

In my opinion, as pet owners, it is our duty to do what's best for the animal regardless of personal preference.

Couldn't agree more. The two are not mutually exclusive, though.

And I don't think starving a snake to take f/t out of desperation and starvation is one of them.

I hope you didn't take desperation and starvation out of anything I wrote, for your own sake.



In the wild, these animals take (someone correct me if I'm wrong) 3 - 5 or more years to reach adult size. We stimulate their feeding response in an extremely controlled environment to force fast growth (something that has negative side-effects on a many species) and get them to adult size in a year and a half.

My mom worked for 10 years doing neuro-pharmacology to try to understand and develop drugs to deal with obesity. When you give a rat a lever to feed itself tasty treats, guess what it does? It becomes unhealthy. Give it kibble that, while it is not nearly as exciting to the rat, will sustain it. Guess what it does? Throttles its feeding. In the wild, mice and rats are maybe not as common as you might think, especially when you're a snake out in the big world looking for them. They've evolved to have a strong feeding response when the OPPORTUNITY presents itself to them. Plopping the largest possible prey item in close quarters with the snake on a set schedule isn't necessarily what caused these animals to hang around after the dinosaurs went extinct?

When my kid refuses his vegetables, I'm not going to fly out to McDonald's to get them a Happy Meal simply because they more willingly accept it.

[MrLang]

I agree with you 100%!

Like I said above, I don't have a problem with f/t if your snake will willingly take it, but I flat out refuse to force the switch on any animal if it puts them in harms way and affects their quality of life. To do so is outright cruelty in my opinion. We are responsible for their well being and we owe it to them meet their needs, even if it isn't what we want.

I never claimed to advocate putting them in harms way or reducing their quality of life. I asked for someone to show evidence that only offering food that doesn't trigger an immediate feeding response would eventually put them in harms way or reduces their quality of life. They aren't having fun eating. They don't wait for Friday night for a pizza with 5 meat toppings like I do. It's a biological function. 'Quality of life' for a snake means survival and minimal discomfort (discomfort which only serves to drive a response). Obesity is killing a lot of humans in this country. I heard it's harmful for snakes, too! I haven't seen a lot of wild caught animals, but I bet they look quite a bit different than the snakes in most people's racks (morphs aside, lol).

[AK907]

I never claimed to advocate putting them in harms way or reducing their quality of life. I asked for someone to show evidence that only offering food that doesn't trigger an immediate feeding response would eventually put them in harms way or reduces their quality of life. They aren't having fun eating. They don't wait for Friday night for a pizza with 5 meat toppings like I do. It's a biological function. 'Quality of life' for a snake means survival and minimal discomfort (discomfort which only serves to drive a response). Obesity is killing a lot of humans in this country. I heard it's harmful for snakes, too! I haven't seen a lot of wild caught animals, but I bet they look quite a bit different than the snakes in most people's racks (morphs aside, lol).

Ok. I still believe your logic is flawed, but to each their own.

I don't see proper feeding techniques being a hindrance to the well being of a snake. I do, however, see sporadic and/or maintenance feeding being detrimental to their health. It may not be immediately apparent other than weight loss. Guess that is why with proper care captive lifespans are generally much higher with most animals. Please remember, I'm not talking down on proper f/t feeding where the snake eats on a regular basis, but those who refuse to feed live and only feed f/t with mixed results (ie only eats part of the time or never) with little concern for the fact that the animal is malnourished are what concern me.

Here are a pastel and a pin that have been properly fed, however I don't believe either has to worry about obesity just yet.



Here is a spider that was owned by someone who only offered f/t and this snake only ate maybe 1 out of every 5 feedings. Not a healthy looking animal if you ask me. After rescuing him we offered live. He became one of our best eaters and the only time he ever skipped a meal was while he was breeding.

[MrLang]

You won't find me arguing any of that

I'm just questioning whether or not it's possible to switch stubborn animals. I don't have pics because the hosting site is blocked at work, but I'm sure the spider looks unhealthy. My response to that would simply be loosely founded denial that offering F/T vs. live was the only variable there. Maybe all of the rest of your husbandry was right, so the snake decided it was time to eat? Have YOU tried F/T?

Anyway, I just hope my point isn't being overlooked because I'm not talking about simply starving an animal that doesn't readily make the change and I'm not talking about risking the health of the animal for the sake of the change.

Someone makes a post: "My bp won't eat"

The first reply would be something like "hi, what are your temps, enclosure, substrate, species of prey, size of prey, humidity, weight of snake vs. age, live or f/t, sickness, sheds, etc."

For me, I'd look at all of those factors in great detail before landing on "some snakes, like yours, simply WON'T eat F/T."