I have to agree with you both as well, I don't like the idea of crossing out black pastels to cinnies, it just doesnt seem right considering how much confusion their is between the two any way, plus a super black pastel would seem a true super black pastel if it was black pastel to a cinnie! Bioteacher those are some very nice pictures again, are they both yours? From seeing those I'd have to hazard a guess and say that my male looks like it could be of Liesen line origin, what do you think?