What is the best example of....

[h00blah]

This is a female pastel that I DO still own and who isn't going anywhere anytime soon She has pretty much everything that I look for in a pastel: very reduced pattern, lots of blushing, and really good color. This picture does her little justice in the color department, and in fact, one thing I love about her is that she's retained that color so very well as she has aged and grown.

Now THAT'S a pastel

[Royal Hijinx]

Lots of interesting points raised. I'll restrain myself from writing a six page, largely redundant dissertation on the topic (for now, anyway ) in lieu of some picture posting, as requested ...

Outstanding post. Thank you. And I would totally read a six page dissertation!

[Mattinho]

Enchi...

[Rhasputin]

I wish I knew what i was looking at so i could appreciate all of these.

[Serpent_Nirvana]

Outstanding post. Thank you. And I would totally read a six page dissertation!

Thanks! Don't tempt me, ha ...

I guess I feel that standards and shows are a double-edged sword. Don't get me wrong, I love selective breeding and think that it's done some amazing and wonderful things with our domestic animals. That said, there are some unintended negative consequences that tend to arise secondary to that quest for the "perfect" specimen, and I'd hate to see those become commonplace in ball pythons. I appreciate that ball breeders do already frequently inbreed, and all inbreeding certainly isn't all bad, but I'd had to see the gene pool shrink down to as low as it is in some domestic animal breeds secondary to intensive line breeding, etc. (We already have enough concerns with the problems that come with certain genes ..!)

I do also agree that, to some extent, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and that variation shouldn't be squashed. Yes, we can pretty much all agree that a brown pastel is an ugly one, but there is a good amount of variation in morphs which I think is quite good and acceptable. For example, I personally love the super ultra reduced-pattern clowns, and I know that a lot of people do, too. However, I know that many others find them boring and like a clown with a much busier, more visually exciting pattern. Those people would be SOL if we were making a standard of perfection for clowns that called for a highly reduced pattern.

There's also the fascinating question of what our goals are or "should" be in ball python breeding. As someone else pointed out, these aren't utilitarian animals, so our standards won't be based on things like frame size and udder conformation. A friend of mine who is more into the conservation/education aspect of herpetoculture has some pretty different opinions on the topic; I think she's more of a mind that we're all here to enjoy the animals and spread the love of all things scaly, and that getting too into the intensive selection aspect of it could potentially lead us too far away from those roots.

Personally, I guess I think that some "standards of perfection" (encompassing maybe 2-4 "types" depending on morph -- eg, Lemon, Blond, Blush for pastel) and some ball python shows would be kind of fun, as long as we kept things civil and lighthearted. I would really hate to see this hobby become elitist and snobbish as a result of show standards, but I think that shows would also have the potential to cast what we're doing in a very positive light.

I can see the points about disease transmission, and yup, that's a huge risk at all livestock shows. I guess I think it would have to be a "play at your own risk" type of thing, with strong recommendations that all participants quarantine participating animals in the same fashion they would a new arrival. It would also be ideal to have a vet onsite (I'd be happy to volunteer next year for some New England shows ) who could send anything that looked suspicious out the door before it spread anything.

That was a lot of words without pictures, so here's one more animal with critique. This is my male albino. I like him because he's EXTREMELY reduced-pattern (I actually am most excited to see what his normal offspring look like ..!) and very high contrast, with popping yellow.

The thing that disappoints me is that his yellow has bled into the white since this photo was taken, and his contrast is a lot lower now (though his yellow is still just as bright).

[Rhasputin]

Serpent_Nirvana you have very decent and well thought out points, thank you for posting!

As far as health, I think in another thread it was mentioned that instead of the judges necessarily handling each animal, the owners could handle them, and show the judges the belly colour, markings, and personality of the snake in question.

Also, health checks would be mandatory at the door, listening for respiratory distress, mites and other signs of illness before the animals are even let into the venue would be a must, in my opinion, to help prevent the spread of disease and parasites.

[snake lab]

The bottom line to this whole debate is what would the paying vendor or breeder be willing to do. And i can tell you as a breeder and show vendor i wouldnt care one bit what snake had a ribbon. Yes it could be a selling point to some but anyone that knows what they are looking for in a morph can make up their minds when purchasing any animal. If you dont know what to look for or the signs of illness or mites then your not educated enough to be making the purchase. I take a great deal of caution when i vend a show. All my displays are over heat, hand sanitizer is a must, i never handle other vendors animals, anyone working my tables have a great deal of experience in the animals we sell. I dont sell a single animal on my tables that i dont know about. Having the knowledge to answer a potential customers questions correctlly is paramount. Having a ribbon dog and pony show is just a sideshow we dont need. Plus i dont need a judge giving me props or downgrading my animals that i put so much time and money into producing based on an oppinion. Id rather leave that up to my customers. Rhasputin you said it yourself, you wish you knew what you were looking at to appreciate the animal. If you dont know what your looking at then i dont expect you to understand my point as a long time breeder in regards to a ribbon show. As it may work with animals with pedigrees and breed standards it wont work with the snake world.

[Rhasputin]

As it may work with animals with pedigrees and breed standards it wont work with the snake world.

Pedigrees exist in the snake world. And standards do as well.

[West Coast Jungle]

Here is my take, recognizing quality comes down to experience and personal taste. I would never go what some book says or some pole on a forum.

If you can't look at a morph and recognize what's right or wrong then you need to do some more homework

Experience is what you want, not some award

[snake lab]

Im still wondering if the yellow ribbon mice taste the same as the red ribbon mice