Collection on Lockdown

[Jay_Bunny]

I really don't know what to do here. In August, I moved to a new apartment. That month, one of my male corn snakes died unexpectedly. We have no idea how old he was as we bought him as an adult in 2008 from a pet store.

In September we lost a 2011 normal female that we hatched out. I figured this wasn't that surprising because of what happened to that clutch. Around day 36, the egg box was pulled out of the incubator. One egg died from a ruptured umbilicus. He bled out in the egg. Another egg actually split open. I was able to repair the tear by supergluing some plastic wrap over the hole (I have pictures of this if anyone is interested in seeing it. It worked amazingly). She hatched just fine and was eating. Then one day I went in and found her deceased.

In October I had a 2011 female spinner. Her and her clutchmates were not eating. They had not eaten in a month so I decided to assist feed them (just put the pinky mouse in their mouth. All of her clutchmates did fine and ate (and are still alive and well, with the exception of two that still won't eat) After the assist feeding she passed away. She hatched out small (under 50g) so I figured she was just a failure to thrive baby or she was too stressed from the assist feed.

Since then, everything has been fine. The snakes have been eating (with the exception of 2 2011 hatchlings that won't eat on their own. I was breeding one pair of snakes, a normal female and a normal 100% het pied male. He was breeding well with her (locking up every single time I put him in with her). His last feeding was on December 24th and his last weigh in was 830g. (He is a 2007 and very small for his age because he was such a trouble feeder. Over the past year he has doubled in size) He did not look malnourished and showed no signs of illness. On February 4th, we found him deceased.

I'm not sure what to make of this. I don't have the money for a necropsy, but I'm wondering if I should be worried. I am already but does anyone think there could actually be something wrong in my collection. At the moment, everyone is eating (again with the exception of the 2 hatchlings and one adult male pastel who has been off feed since late November. He has lost only 10g.) There are no signs of illness. Temperatures are around 90 (it fluctuates between 88-90, with the room temp being 75. I can't make the room temp warmer at this time because I also house my ferrets in the same room and they overheat easily). Everyone has access to fresh water, is housed on Aspen bedding, no signs of mites or illness.

The only thing that is different with my collection is that I added two carpet pythons. They are currently in QT and I'm very careful with that. The carpets appear healthy and are eating well.

For now, my collection is on lock down and I'm not breeding any of my snakes. It sucks because I have two females ready to go but I'm terrified of pairing my snakes and have another snake die. Not a single snake appears unhealthy. All have good weight. I can't imagine why he died. The only thing I can think of is maybe he had some kind of genetic problem. He's only ever fathered one clutch of 6 eggs. 4 of those eggs died during incubation. One baby went full term but died in the egg shortly before hatching. It had major deformities and would not have survived outside the egg. The one that did hatch had several kinks and died 3 months later because it could not physically swallow prey items.

I'm just not sure what to do at this point. Should I worry there is something going on with my collection or are these isolated deaths that are not related? I just don't know.

And before anyone says "Go get a necropsy done!", he's been in a freezer since 2/4. I am told that there is almost no point in doing a necropsy once the body has been frozen. It has been recommended to me to have fecals done just to rule out internal parasites, though I doubt this is the problem.

For those of you who read my post before about the pinstripe with the neurological problem (she has a wobble like a spider), I now believe that to be due to malnutrition. She is still not eating on her own but is getting regular assist feedings. She is gaining weight (now about 60g) and her wobble is almost non-existant.

[Kinra]

I'm really sorry to hear about this. I can't offer any help unfortunately, but have you consulted with a reptile vet? I know you can't have a necropsy done but they might be able to give you some other ideas. I hope the rest of your collection is fine.

[Slim]

On the surface this just sounds like a run of bad luck. I read back through this twice, and please correct me where I'm wrong, but it seems that other than your Corn that passed in August (and seems unrelated), you've lost one adult BP and several Juvies that you hatched yourself. With out any further info, I just don't see how these deaths are connected.

Juvies can be an iffy proposition, and a run of bad luck like this isn't unheard of. You clearly documented the struggles of the snakes that were not thriving. Setting the Juvies aside for a second, that leaves your Het Pied male. He could have expired from any number of reasons, and with out a necropsy it's impossible to rule out certain things like a physical structural defect or some type of catastophic internal problem. Seems unlikely he would have died from either parasites or disese that quickly with no other visible signs of distress. I understand your position on having a necropsy done, and at this point I would not either if I were in your shoes.

As hard as it is on you, I think your decision to put your collection on lock down is prudent, if nothing else so you can observe your animals without extra stimuli that might cloud the matter. Again, on the surface, this looks like a run of bad luck. Careful observation should help you decide if this is the case or not.

Good Luck!

[wilomn]

If you have the male necropsied it won't be able to tell you if a pathogen was involved, most likely, but it may be able to tell you if it was some sort of physical malformation. Maybe his heart was bad, maybe his kidneys shut down.

It doesn't sound like you've got anything running through your snakes, but it's hard to know with such limited information.

I'd keep on as you're doing but if nothing else goes bad in the next couple of weeks I'd go ahead and breed what's ready.

[Jay_Bunny]

Thanks everyone. I'm still watching my snakes like a hawk. So far everyone seems completely normal. I only have two juvies that are not eating on their own but have been getting regular assist feeds. I'm going to try them on live rat pinks or live mouse hoppers next week to see if they will take them. Other than that, the pastel male is still holding out but maintaining a good weight. Everything else is completely normal. Everyone else is eating, gaining weight well and acting normally.

I will still speak to a herp vet to get their opinion on the matter. I plan on learning to do my own fecals soon so that I can do my entire collection 1-2 times annually just as a routine health screen.

My het pied male was my first ball python, so he was special. I am going to miss that boy. I don't think it has sunk in yet. I keep expecting to right his name down when I do feedings or cleanings and then have to remind myself he's no longer there.

[dr del]

Hi,

Have you double checked there is no spraying or anything happening in the new complex?

It doesn't sound likely but it's the only idea I have.


dr del

[Jay_Bunny]

They have come in to spray (a few months back), but it is a localized spray. It was only along the bottom of the front and sliding glass doors and the kitchen under appliances. It is not a spray that goes up into the air and likey we did not track it into the snake room. Also, the spraying does not coincide with any of the deaths. I do believe we share ventilation but there have been no sprayings for a while. If there was some kind of pesticide in the air, I'm pretty sure my bird would begin to exhibit some kind of symptoms as I've been told birds are extremely sensitive to that sort of thing. She is housed in the same room as the snakes. Her health and behavior are completely normal.

We clean the tubs with dawn dish soap and hot water. I've only recently began using bleach (after his death, I bleached everything) The other cleaners we use around the apartment are non-toxic, pet safe cleaners. We use Febreeze in the rest of the apartment, but do not spray it in the snake room.