Homozygous Spider Morph

[snakesRkewl]

I'd think the worst thing that could happen is it is proven homozygous(doubt).

$15 spider males, $40 spider females...

[paulh]

This is how I have learned it at University. Codominant means working together. Co= together. So for example a black mouse x white mouse would give a mouse who has black and white in his coat. Incomplete dominant means when you do black mouse x white mouse you would get a grey mouse. Black is not completely dominant over white so you will get grey.

Here are definitions taken from three genetics texts. They differ in definitions and how they classify the various examples. How the sickle cell gene is classified depends on the test used.

How would each text classify the spider mutant gene (assuming spider is not dominant to normal)?

For what it's worth, I follow Miller because that definition is the simplest for a breeder to use.

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Atherly, et al. (1999):
codominance -- a form of dominance relationship between two alleles of one gene in which the heterozygote shows the phenotypes of both alleles. Example -- A, B, and AB human blood types; sickle cell trait in humans.

incomplete dominance -- progeny that possess a phenotype that is approximately intermediate between the homozygous parents. Example -- red, white, and pink flowers; sickle cell trait in humans; Siamese, Burmese, and Tonkinese cat coat colors.

overdominance -- a dominance relationship in which the heterozygote has a greater or more extreme phenotype than individuals homozygous for either allele. Example -- a heterozygous plant that is larger than either homozygous parental type; sickle cell trait in humans.
------------------------
Zubey (1987):
codominance -- A situation in which the phenotype is the additive function of two alleles. Both alleles are expressed. Example -- A, B, and AB human blood types; sickle cell trait in humans; Siamese, Burmese, and Tonkinese cat coat colors.

incomplete dominance -- A situation in which only one allele is expressed, and the amount of expression is directly proportional to gene dosage. Example -- red, white, and pink flowers.

overdominance -- the situation in which the heterozygote a more extreme form of a trait than either homozygote. Example -- a heterozygous plant that is larger than either homozygous parental type; sickle cell trait in humans.
------------------------
Miller (1991):
Codominance -- the heterozygote's phenotype can be distinguished from either homozygote's phenotype. This allows each of the three genotypes to be inferred from its phenotype. Synonyms -- incomplete dominance, overdominance, many others. Examples -- A, B, and AB human blood types; sickle cell trait in humans; red, white, and pink flowers; Siamese, Burmese, and Tonkinese cat coat colors; a heterozygous plant that is larger than either homozygous parental type.
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References:
Atherly, Alan G., Jack R. Girton, and John F. McDonald. The Science of Genetics. Saunders College Publishing, Fort Worth, TX. 1999, 704 pp.

Miller, Wilmer J. A Survey of Genetics. Ginn Press, Needham Heights, MA. 2nd ed., 1991, 328 pp.

Zubay, Geoffrey. 1987. Genetics. The Benjamin/Cummings Publishing Co., Menlo Park, CA. 1987, 973 pp.

[Domepiece]

Here are definitions taken from three genetics texts. They differ in definitions and how they classify the various examples. How the sickle cell gene is classified depends on the test used.

How would each text classify the spider mutant gene (assuming spider is not dominant to normal)?

For what it's worth, I follow Miller because that definition is the simplest for a breeder to use.

------------------------

Atherly, et al. (1999):
codominance -- a form of dominance relationship between two alleles of one gene in which the heterozygote shows the phenotypes of both alleles. Example -- A, B, and AB human blood types; sickle cell trait in humans.

incomplete dominance -- progeny that possess a phenotype that is approximately intermediate between the homozygous parents. Example -- red, white, and pink flowers; sickle cell trait in humans; Siamese, Burmese, and Tonkinese cat coat colors.

overdominance -- a dominance relationship in which the heterozygote has a greater or more extreme phenotype than individuals homozygous for either allele. Example -- a heterozygous plant that is larger than either homozygous parental type; sickle cell trait in humans.
------------------------
Zubey (1987):
codominance -- A situation in which the phenotype is the additive function of two alleles. Both alleles are expressed. Example -- A, B, and AB human blood types; sickle cell trait in humans; Siamese, Burmese, and Tonkinese cat coat colors.

incomplete dominance -- A situation in which only one allele is expressed, and the amount of expression is directly proportional to gene dosage. Example -- red, white, and pink flowers.

overdominance -- the situation in which the heterozygote a more extreme form of a trait than either homozygote. Example -- a heterozygous plant that is larger than either homozygous parental type; sickle cell trait in humans.
------------------------
Miller (1991):
Codominance -- the heterozygote's phenotype can be distinguished from either homozygote's phenotype. This allows each of the three genotypes to be inferred from its phenotype. Synonyms -- incomplete dominance, overdominance, many others. Examples -- A, B, and AB human blood types; sickle cell trait in humans; red, white, and pink flowers; Siamese, Burmese, and Tonkinese cat coat colors; a heterozygous plant that is larger than either homozygous parental type.
------------------------
References:
Atherly, Alan G., Jack R. Girton, and John F. McDonald. The Science of Genetics. Saunders College Publishing, Fort Worth, TX. 1999, 704 pp.

Miller, Wilmer J. A Survey of Genetics. Ginn Press, Needham Heights, MA. 2nd ed., 1991, 328 pp.

Zubay, Geoffrey. 1987. Genetics. The Benjamin/Cummings Publishing Co., Menlo Park, CA. 1987, 973 pp.

I dont think that anyone is really doubting the way genetics actually work technically speaking, only that for the purposes of ball pythons we use them pretty basically to make things more simple. Its more application and trial and error, many of morphs out there havnt really been explored or combined with every different morph so nothing is known until proven many times over. The example of mice isnt really the same thing, ball python patterns and color mutations are a little harder to predict than a black and white mouse makes grey or a black and white mouse, any person with any sense could resonably asume that would be the case, and mice can breed months after they are born and balls can take up to 3 years which makes it a little more difficult to prove out genetics. Only time will tell. But for the mean time the misnomers for the names we label genetic traits seems to work for its purpose. Essentially too many morphs, not all have been combined, lack of extensive genetic experimentation, this gene usually does this, we havent seen that gene do that yet=just call it this trait for now and if its proven something else later, change it.

[dr del]

Hi,

I'm sure we've seen super forms of the black head and the granite. Both from Ralph Davis iirc.


dr del

[Egapal]

talk to kevin directly if you want to hear him say it. I would also disagree that that it would make it a most likely scenario, just because something looks similar doesn't make it the same. your using another gene to make the comparison, I don't see that as evidence at all... by your logic how can spider + hidden gene woma be fine? looks like champ has a better chance of being the issue.
champ + spider = not good
spider + hidden gene woma = good
champ + hidden gene woma = not good
the evidence is no more of a stretch, than its completely normal gene and we just haven't had one proved out publicly.

anything else I have to say has already been said, this argument goes round and round. want to skip to the bottom line there is no proof of any theory, so why not wait until there is something worth talking about to come out? you use words like definitely when there is nothing definite about this entire subject......

Absence is not proof but it is evidence as we would expect to see homozygous spiders. The long the absence persists the stronger that evidence becomes. As for woma hidden and champain, are these allelic? That would explain alot. Regardless the reason we continue to talk about this instead of waiting for proof is the community has members who are considering a spider x spider pairing. If this gene is lethal then a clutch of 6 viable eggs could have been 8 if bred to normals with the same odds at 4 spider hatchlings either way. What if a homozygous spider has a much worse wobble. A spider x spider pairing could result in selling a problem animal as a pet. Not everyone has no vested interest in this topic.

[OhhWatALoser]

Hi,

I'm sure we've seen super forms of the black head and the granite. Both from Ralph Davis iirc.


dr del

i see, he hasn't updated his website, right now it says both of them are unknown. However I found pictures of both a with a little google search. thanks

we havent seen that gene do that yet=just call it this trait for now and if its proven something else later, change it.

isn't that how science in general pretty much works? lol

Absence is not proof but it is evidence as we would expect to see homozygous spiders. The long the absence persists the stronger that evidence becomes. As for woma hidden and champain, are these allelic?

I would hardly call it evidence, all we know is that spider x spider pairings have been done. We have no numbers, what exactly was tired with how many offspring after that.... we got nothing publicly. people claim to do spider x spider pairings, but wheres the record keeping which is pretty much needed to prove these things out? absence of information is what we have, I don't see that as evidence. also I don't think your going to ever find out if they lay on the same locus, train wreak combo.

[RandyRemington]

I believe HG Woma is technically an example of a homozygous lethal ball python mutation. The pearls hatch but apparently don't live to maturity.

NERD has been consistently opposed to any label with the word "lethal". I can understand because you can't get much more negative but as I've regularly pointed out "homozygous lethal" doesn't really say anything negative about heterozygous spiders and their many beautiful combos. Still people jump to incorrect conclusions when you talk about spider possibly being homozygous lethal like that spider X spider can't produce any viable offspring (3/4 of the clutch should still be good) or that you would have to see the problem homozygous spiders (they might not hatch) so maybe that's why NERD is saying spider can't be homozygous lethal.

...know what else we haven't seen homozygous of? Avalanche, Banana, Black Belly, Black Head, Black Lace, Calico, Champagne, Coral Glow, Daddy Gene, Desert, Ember, Epic, Fader, Granite, Het Highway, Spark, Josie, Marble, Napalm, Orange Glow, Philistine, Reaper, Shatter, Spector, Sugar, Whirlwind, Whitesmoke, Woma. Are they all co-dominant also since there is an absence of homozygous forms of them, or maybe it's just not proven yet.....

I've not followed all of these but I do remember RDR doing a platy X platy breeding and producing a female normal looking that should have been a super daddy gene (aka hidden). Didn't hear if it grew up ok and bred to prove its expected genetics. Should have been able to breed it to a homozygous lesser and produce 100% platy.

At this point I sort of take a negative agnostic view. I would say that any morph without a proven viable homozygous example is potentially homozygous lethal and unknown if it's dominant or co-dominant (on a like subject I would say any morph without a proven producing female is potentially female sterile). How likely it's just a case of not enough time to prove one out versus an actual homozygous lethal situation depends on how long the morph has been out and how many people are working with it. I understand the first spider was imported over 20 years ago and many many people are breeding spiders so the lack of a public proven homozygous spider is conspicuous.

I've also heard the occasional claim of a potential homozygous spider having produced a string of only spiders. Most of these are 3rd party reports but of course I'd love to hear more info on them rather than just assuming when they don't come back with updated info that the string was eventually broken.

[OhhWatALoser]

I believe HG Woma is technically an example of a homozygous lethal ball python mutation. The pearls hatch but apparently don't live to maturity.

NERD has been consistently opposed to any label with the word "lethal". I can understand because you can't get much more negative but as I've regularly pointed out "homozygous lethal" doesn't really say anything negative about heterozygous spiders and their many beautiful combos. Still people jump to incorrect conclusions when you talk about spider possibly being homozygous lethal like that spider X spider can't produce any viable offspring (3/4 of the clutch should still be good) or that you would have to see the problem homozygous spiders (they might not hatch) so maybe that's why NERD is saying spider can't be homozygous lethal.

I've not followed all of these but I do remember RDR doing a platy X platy breeding and producing a female normal looking that should have been a super daddy gene (aka hidden). Didn't hear if it grew up ok and bred to prove its expected genetics. Should have been able to breed it to a homozygous lesser and produce 100% platy.

At this point I sort of take a negative agnostic view. I would say that any morph without a proven viable homozygous example is potentially homozygous lethal and unknown if it's dominant or co-dominant (on a like subject I would say any morph without a proven producing female is potentially female sterile). How likely it's just a case of not enough time to prove one out versus an actual homozygous lethal situation depends on how long the morph has been out and how many people are working with it. I understand the first spider was imported over 20 years ago and many many people are breeding spiders so the lack of a public proven homozygous spider is conspicuous.

I've also heard the occasional claim of a potential homozygous spider having produced a string of only spiders. Most of these are 3rd party reports but of course I'd love to hear more info on them rather than just assuming when they don't come back with updated info that the string was eventually broken.

Would have to ask kevin what he means. The platty x platty rumor has been going around for a while, its not true. Ralph is attempting it this year however. I figure that gene and the yellow belly stuff could easily be proven out that way, yay for complexes. Apparently first spiders were produced in 1999 so that makes 13 years of babies, but length of time doesn't mean much since I see claims of spider x spider pairings, but never any follow ups on the clutches let alone the spider offspring after. We have the same lack of information every year.

[RandyRemington]

RDR's first platy X platy breeding was 2007 clutch 76:

http://ralphdavisreptiles.com/birthi...thons_8_07.asp

The story I heard was that the original spider was imported by CalZoo and sold by Randy Buck of Super Pets in Orange County CA to NERD in 1989 and that was the same year VPI got the clown from the same seller. I think I've read that it took a while for the clown project to get going and might be the same for the spider but at any rate it's been a while. I picked up my founder Garcia line chocolate at a pet store in 2001 and didn’t hatch my first homozygous until 2011 so I know how that goes.

TSK did some spider to spider in 2007 and 2 of the 8 eggs where small and didn't hatch. All of the spider babies where females but they hoped to breed them this last year, I just haven't checked back to ask if they went. In 2008 they did another spider X spider breeding and report 6 good eggs and 1 slug hatching 1.4 spiders so maybe that 2008 possible homozygous spider male has bred by now too.

[OhhWatALoser]

RDR's first platy X platy breeding was 2007 clutch 76:

http://ralphdavisreptiles.com/birthi...thons_8_07.asp

The story I heard was that the original spider was imported by CalZoo and sold by Randy Buck of Super Pets in Orange County CA to NERD in 1989 and that was the same year VPI got the clown from the same seller. I think I've read that it took a while for the clown project to get going and might be the same for the spider but at any rate it's been a while. I picked up my founder Garcia line chocolate at a pet store in 2001 and didn’t hatch my first homozygous until 2011 so I know how that goes.

TSK did some spider to spider in 2007 and 2 of the 8 eggs where small and didn't hatch. All of the spider babies where females but they hoped to breed them this last year, I just haven't checked back to ask if they went. In 2008 they did another spider X spider breeding and report 6 good eggs and 1 slug hatching 1.4 spiders so maybe that 2008 possible homozygous spider male has bred by now too.

never seen that link before thanks for clearing that up, interesting because i sent this to ralph

I was curious how much Christmas money I need to save up to purchase a het platty daddy male or female from you?

I also had a question about the het platty daddy, I herd you bred a platty to a platty and produced a normal looking animal (it would have to be a homozygous/super het platty daddy), can you confirm this? If not have you attempted to produced a homozygous het platty daddy?

thx and hoping to hear back form you
-matt

this is the email i got from ralph.

Hi,

I sell het platties for $1750 each.

I have not gotten that far with the platty gene. I do know that any normal offspring from a platty are “het”………the lessers are not I’m trying platty x platty this season.

Thanks,
Ralph

maybe he ment he hasn't proved out that homzoygous animal.... but sounded to me like he never made anything.

Hopefully they keep us updated.