Ever think that my spider may be more adapted to this world then your normal?

[interloc]

I feel like all this bickering is restarted. It's fair to say that we all seem to enjoy spiders company, their personality, and their babies. It's also fair to say that yes NERD has/had a wild caught spider. It may not be the only one, but it's the most famous. It's like when people say that earth is the only planet with water. There is no way of knowing that due to the amount of stars and the amount of rock that's floating around our there. If you had a wild caught spider now that wobbled, why would you brag about it when it's no different then the rest. I loved reading the first post because I thought it raised a good topic to think about. Im sure it wasn't meant to start a fight. So let's all calm down and have a discussion nicely. Please!

[Driver]

lol I dont think that either of us are really fighting. Its just very obvious that we both like to debate/argue what ever you want to call it. Its something that is entertaining and we both appear to be strong headed. So much so that we are doing this little discussion together on two separate forums at the same time.

[interloc]

LOL. Alright. As long as we are all getting along.

[MrLang]

OP is either trolling or very uneducated on genetics and evolution. Since there's already a feeding frenzy, I'll chime in under the second assumption.

The spider wobble is a form of ataxia. It's pretty well understood in the medical world. It's a genetic defect. It's not an evolutionary advantage. Before trying to argue that point with me, I'll say that I'm not going to write a research paper to justify those statements. They are well founded and you can use your new vocab word to research further if it interests you. In this case, the ataxia is most definitely linked to the same mutation that causes the color pattern of a spider, as it has been vigorously attempted to select out the behavior while retaining the color pattern and always been unsuccessful.

The morph came from one original snake that was imported by NERD in 1999. Finding new snakes in africa is a big deal. The poor person who discovered the original spider probably got paid 2 dollars for it rather than 10 cents like the rest of the snakes they caught. If there was a population of spiders, we'd know...

In terms of the spider gene pool possibly being more suited to being kept as a domestic pet, there could be a small bit of truth there. Mine is certainly great. I would love to see some real science to back that but that's a pipe dream at best... for now we can just enjoy them and agree that they do just fine in captivity by discussiong how wonderful they are on the forums

[Domepiece]

OP is either trolling or very uneducated on genetics and evolution. Since there's already a feeding frenzy, I'll chime in under the second assumption.

The spider wobble is a form of ataxia. It's pretty well understood in the medical world. It's a genetic defect. It's not an evolutionary advantage. Before trying to argue that point with me, I'll say that I'm not going to write a research paper to justify those statements. They are well founded and you can use your new vocab word to research further if it interests you. In this case, the ataxia is most definitely linked to the same mutation that causes the color pattern of a spider, as it has been vigorously attempted to select out the behavior while retaining the color pattern and always been unsuccessful.

The morph came from one original snake that was imported by NERD in 1999. Finding new snakes in africa is a big deal. The poor person who discovered the original spider probably got paid 2 dollars for it rather than 10 cents like the rest of the snakes they caught. If there was a population of spiders, we'd know...

In terms of the spider gene pool possibly being more suited to being kept as a domestic pet, there could be a small bit of truth there. Mine is certainly great. I would love to see some real science to back that but that's a pipe dream at best... for now we can just enjoy them and agree that they do just fine in captivity by discussiong how wonderful they are on the forums

I hear and know what you are talking about, however just because something is classifieded as a disorder or dysfunctional doesnt mean that it couldnt serve or hasnt served as a beneficial survival tactic. Sickle Cell anemia for instance us considered a disorder in humans but in a place where malaria is prevalent say Africa or anywhere tropical this disorder would be beneficial since malaria is rampant there and people with this disorder are less likely to get and better equiped to deal with malaria. Just so happens that many Africans and people of African descent carry this gene or exhibit it. Just playing devils advocate.

[devildog_dk]

All of the speculation on the wobble being a defect due to inbreeding is misplaced. If snakes were mammals (or more specifically primates) that could be relevant, but as it is I have a hard time believing the genetic differences resulting from inbreeding between the two are even worth comparing... apples to oranges yada yada...

Either way I'm not exactly a fan of the spider gene, but I'm not a critic either. And it has nothing to do with the wobble, I'm just indiffernent on them aesthetically. I can also appreciate an alternate point of view, so thank you Mike, I enjoyed the read.

[Mike Cavanaugh]

OP is either trolling or very uneducated on genetics and evolution. Since there's already a feeding frenzy, I'll chime in under the second assumption.

The spider wobble is a form of ataxia. It's pretty well understood in the medical world. It's a genetic defect. It's not an evolutionary advantage. Before trying to argue that point with me, I'll say that I'm not going to write a research paper to justify those statements. They are well founded and you can use your new vocab word to research further if it interests you. In this case, the ataxia is most definitely linked to the same mutation that causes the color pattern of a spider, as it has been vigorously attempted to select out the behavior while retaining the color pattern and always been unsuccessful.

Ah.... the precious moments when a 3 month old newbie with 2 ball pythons rocks the ball python world with expert knowledge that is SO respected, that he doesn't even have to back up his claims.

LOL!

I suggest that perhaps YOU do some more research on ataxia. Then I suggest that you keep and breed spiders and spider combos for the next few years. Once you have produced about 100 spiders, then come back and talk to me. I would bet that at that point you will be able to understand why it probably isn't ataxia.

[Tzeentch]

I see the spider gene as the human equivalent to down syndrome or autism.

[MrLang]

I hear and know what you are talking about, however just because something is classifieded as a disorder or dysfunctional doesnt mean that it couldnt serve or hasnt served as a beneficial survival tactic. Sickle Cell anemia for instance us considered a disorder in humans but in a place where malaria is prevalent say Africa or anywhere tropical this disorder would be beneficial since malaria is rampant there and people with this disorder are less likely to get and better equiped to deal with malaria. Just so happens that many Africans and people of African descent carry this gene or exhibit it. Just playing devils advocate.

Sickle Cell Anemia wasn't selected for by natural pressures though... this is a 'unrelated helpful side effect' from a genetic disorder that overall reduces the fitness of the individual. I agree with you totally, which is kind of my point about Spiders potentially being better suited for domestication. As someone with a background in science I need to draw a distinction between evolution and flaws having dumb luck positive consequences. I'm not saying evolution doesn't start with such mutations, just that it isn't what we see with Sickle Cell (which by definition reduces the fitness of the individual) or Spider Wobble (which, in captivity, doesn't reduce the fitness.) There aren't separate populations of Spider BPs living in the wild (which by the way would be the only way you can support a claim about them being 'evolved'). Being a man of science, I won't be bullish enough to make unsupported claims as fact. I can't say that they would have reduced fitness in the grasslands because I couldn't support that with real science, but if I were a betting man I'd put money on them being disadvantaged.

@ Mike - I'm not going to get into a personal squabble with you, so don't bait or I'll leave the discussion. I don't get the sense that you're contributing to your thread to learn anything, which is a real shame since you're wrong on many of your points. I'm confused how owning and breeding more spider ball pythons in plastic bins makes you better equipped to discuss evolution, genetics, or medical disorders with me. I'm speaking under the premise of what is known fact and universally accepted by people much smarter and who have done much more of their homework than you or I. You're speaking to your own personal speculation. I'm not telling you that you're wrong to be a jerk... I'm telling you that you're wrong because you're wrong.

I'd pit my background with an Evolutionary Biology degree, veterinarian sister who attended the most accredited vet school in the country and who owns her own practice, and mother who has worked in Neuropharmacology for 30 years over your experience raising snakes in an environment that doesn't even come remotely close to mimicking the wild.

[rabernet]

Spiders are a genetic problem from inbreeding *lol* They may have had some survive in the wild, but a lot, in fact most of the morphs in the ball python trade were bred by keepers and would not have been in the wild. No wild snake is going to breed to it's mother, then have that offspring breed back to itself and so on.

LOL right back at 'cha! They are one of the most OUTBRED mutations that there is. Since there's no super form of spider, there's no reason for a breeder to ever line breed or breed back to parents.

At least have an argument that makes a little bit of sense.