Are you kidding me?!?! (Rant Warning)

[crazyj83]

So let me get this straight. You say get facts. Okay, the OP walked into the store with his family, including children, and witnessed the conditions he described. He explained that he talked with an employee who only reinforced his concerns.

Now, short of contacting the owner, which I agree, should have been the first step. how would you have gathered more facts? The OP witnessed the neglect first hand. His wife and children also witnessed the conditions and I'm sure are in support of his efforts.

Also, if you had read all of the post's you would have seen that I advised him to contact the ASPCA and report the stores conditions or go back with camera in hand and take pictures, then when asked, tell them that he just thought the ASPCA should know what a fine job they are doing. I never told him to go to the press but since he did at least we can support his efforts. He did something. What have you done to end this kind of neglect/abuse?

And.... The name calling says more about you then it does about me.

To the OP, I appologize for getting off topic a little. I think you did well because the outcome was benefitial to the animals. Maybe you could go back to the store in a couple weeks and see for yourself if the necissary changes were made.

First, I want to appologize for any rude remarks made to you by others on this thread.
Second, thank you for seeing that I truely ment no harm to the herp community, I just wanted to help save and protect animals that we all care for and love.

I also want to clear up one thing. I did contact the store manager, and when he was no help I contacted the owners who seemed to pass the issue off as just another gripe and nothing to care about. The only reason I went as far as I did was to get my point that the animals health was at risk. The aspca said it could and more then likely would be middle of next month before they could do anything. Now please I dare anyone reading this to tell me that a bp with sever scale rot and a RI thats so bad the poor thing is gasping for air, mixed with 4 other bps and a baby burm, please try and tell me yheyd still have a chance of survival if I had let the matter go for a month... I'm pretty sure they would all have been sick if not dead. Now lets put it this way, the bps in question are just a $ to the owners. Now to an owner of they have 5 bps marked at $60each and a burm at $150 give or take, those animals die they take $450 or so in a loss, unless the breeder offers a credit for unsold animals. So do you really think they give a damn when someone complains? I think not. I do know that the second you bring in any sorce that will effect total store income, the people in charge take notice. Anyways all is said and done for now. I plan on returning to the store in a few days and verify thing have come to order.
Raptor, as for you I dont see why you decided to turn this into a mudslunging forum but if you remember when you responded to my prior post when you said you have visited that store, I asked you to go and see if I was overacting, and yet I dont believe you did, simply due to the fact your still defending the company. Untill you see what I saw and handled, i'd like to remind you I was, and always will do what I believe to be right.
I'd again like to thank everyone thats read this intire thread and see's I was only doing what I felt was right for the animals.

[wilomn]

First, I want to appologize for any rude remarks made to you by others on this thread.

When I feel the need to apologize, I will. So piss off on that score boyo, you don't have the right.

Secondly, you DO realize that today is christmas right? I hear some folks spend time with family and some stores are closed. That may have some effect on anyone's being able to verify what you've said. Then there's the whole you say one thing, someone else, one time if I recall correctly which is hardly defending anyone, said they saw something different.

No one has a problem with you "doing what you think is right."

However, tell me this, why should anyone take your word for it? I don't know you and even if I did I'd still ask for more proof than you've provided before I got my panties all wadded up. You see, newb, you're not the first to have misplaced good intentions. It's a darn shame you got all bent about the way I ask, but life is tough sometimes, get over it.

[FalconPunch]

Starting to look like a mod needs to shut the lid on this one. "The friendliest online community for all your herping needs!" Remember that line? Look at the top of the page.

Also, I have just a couple opinions.

1) Pet stores need consequences for mistreating animals, but surely we can find a better way than going to the media (Fox, of all places).

2) ANY PUBLICITY FOR OUR HOBBY HAS PROVEN TO BE BAD. We'd be better off in the shadows with people completely ignoring us. No attention means less laws.

3) OP, i'm glad you did something. You didn't want those animals to suffer and that was very noble. Media, I personally don't agree with. They have been nothing but trouble for us. Boycotting, online reviews, written correspondence with owners (do this first), contacting authorities, and telling your online community (read: us) about it are the right courses of action in my mind.

TAKE PICTURES BEFORE TALKING TO MANAGEMENT IF YOU WANT THEM TO TAKE YOU SERIOUSLY. PICTURES ARE WORTH A THOUSAND ANNOYING CUSTOMERS COMPLAINING.

[Raptor]

I'm defending the company because I've been shopping there off and on for over two years. I've handled the snakes. I've talked to the employees numerous times. I've even been in the back where they keep the feeder mice because I wanted to pick out some breeders.

No, I didn't go to the store, because honestly? I'm not going to drive an hour over to the store and use up two gallons of gas, especially not with all the construction going on and during the final christmas rush to buy gifts.

Once incident is not enough to convince me that the stores have suddenly turned evil.

[Martin_Jr]

Damn thats sad....

[crazyj83]

When I feel the need to apologize, I will. So piss off on that score boyo, you don't have the right.

Secondly, you DO realize that today is christmas right? I hear some folks spend time with family and some stores are closed. That may have some effect on anyone's being able to verify what you've said. Then there's the whole you say one thing, someone else, one time if I recall correctly which is hardly defending anyone, said they saw something different.

No one has a problem with you "doing what you think is right."

However, tell me this, why should anyone take your word for it? I don't know you and even if I did I'd still ask for more proof than you've provided before I got my panties all wadded up. You see, newb, you're not the first to have misplaced good intentions. It's a darn shame you got all bent about the way I ask, but life is tough sometimes, get over it.

Humm... Did not realize I named you as an offender... Nice of you to join in. also yes I know today is Christmas, I was not telling anyone to drive there today, matter of fact I merly asked if a fellow Tulsa area owner could go by to see for themselves before passing judgement. But like i've said, I did what I felt was right by the animals health and welfare. But its cool yall bash me for lighting a fire under a petstore owners rear to keep on top of the quality and care of the animals they sell to the public.
Ask yourself this, if you went to a breeder and saw a mess of sick snakes and dirty tubs, and after trying to get them to clean up and help the sick, you wouldent step up the pressure to help the animals?

[Raptor]

You need to stop making assumptions. I never said I lived in the immediate tulsa area. You also asked back on the 21st, which is prime time for last minute shopping.

[enchantress62]

Wow! Okay. Crazyj83 I commend you for taking action and I hope all will be well for the poor snakes you stood up for. It's often hard to do the right thing when faced with controversy and critizism but it wouldn't be called "Courage" if it were easy. Hat's off and a bow.

[crazyj83]

You need to stop making assumptions. I never said I lived in the immediate tulsa area. You also asked back on the 21st, which is prime time for last minute shopping.

I never assumed, I recall asking that if you 'did' live in Tulsa to swing by and see for yourself. I live up in Skiatook, and i'm pretty sure if anyone in Tulsa, Barttlesville, anywhere in between I'd be there to help if asked. But its cool. Like I said, I really dont care how much crap I get over this thread, I know I did what was right for the animals...

[wolfy-hound]

First, "going off" on a employee or "raising some cain" is not a way to be seen as a reasonable reptile keeper who is concerned with the animals. It's the way to be seen a PETA whacko that thinks anything is extreme abuse and will go off at anything.

First, you should bring concerns to the attention of the employee in a reasonable adult manner, addressing illnesses or extreme husbandry, taking into account the manner a STORE has to display animals for sale.

So address the symptoms of severe illness on the baby BP. Point out the symptoms, explain what they mean and that the RI will spread to infect all the other snakes. Offer to take the snake to their in store clinic with the employee right then. "Hey, let's walk it over to your vet... he can look at it!"

Address keeping two species in a single tank, and keeping extreme size differences(if there are any) in the same cage. DO realize that yes, a store WILL keep more than one baby BP in a tank, that's going to happen. They can't have a single tank per animal in every case and keeping a few BPs in a single tank until they sell isn't neccasarily a huge thing.

If the employee blows you off, then ask to speak to a manager and address THEM reasonably. If they blow you off, then ask for the store owner's information, since they should know the health concerns will result in the animals dying, possibly after being sold, which will lead to not only lost income but a bad name for the business too.

If you present concerns in a well thought out manner sounding like a reasonable adult, in a way to shows the store that it hurts THEM as well as the animals... you would probably get a positive result. Ranting at some employee and shouting in a store makes you look like a nutcase, doesn't help the animals and can even result in the employees deiberately NOT changing how they do things "just because some weirdo screamed about it in the store".

Do you want conditions improved for all the reptiles? Or do you want some public placating and things to not really change? Sure, yelling and pitching a fit feels good but it's only going to alienate the people who have hands-on those animals every day. Wouldn't you rather have people who have proper knowledge of how to care for and treat the animals rather than some people who grudgingly do the least amount possible because they're angry over being treated like idiots?

Sometimes it's better to take a deep breath and behave more like a responsible adult than to pitch fits and threaten to call in the media or authorities. As you've found out, the authorities have better things to do than go check on reptiles in a store that have water and shelter, and the media prefer fluffy kitties to 'poor neglected snakes'. A media threat might make them clean the cages up for the cameras. Educating them as to why proper care results in better profits and healthier stock benefits the ANIMALS.

Just saying. Just my opinion. I try to think of the critters first, no matter HOW angry the neglect might make me.