That's why I didn't think they were normals. The normals I've had ad seen had no fde at all at the belly. These do. Ill take some pics of their belly tomorrow and post em. If you know anyone you can show these pics to I'm dying to know what they are. The female I'm almost 100% sure is somekind of morph, she's real bright and has nice blushing. I think I might need to find someone to see em in person. XP