Question about Racks vs Enclosures

[RichL]

I haven't been 'in' the community for a long time, but have had at least one BP at a time for many years. I recently( past few months) found 'proper' care sheets and of course made adjustments as needed. Since then, I have acquired 6 more BP's. I can now see why so many people choose to go to a rack setup.

Racks or tubs are definitely a VERY acceptable habitat for BP's. You can maintain a perfect husbandry very easily and on top of that, they are very easy to clean. Racks are space efficient and just all around great for larger collections.

My question comes in about racks providing a 'quality' of life for our animals. I realize that BP's ( as well as other snakes ) do not need a lot of space. They rest a lot during the day and usually only wonder about for food at night.

The thing is though, when I had my BP's in enclosures/tanks with greenery, rocks, branches, etc they tended to roam around a bit more at night. I currently have them in tubs because I didn't have the money at the time to get what I needed to maintain the proper heat and humidity requirements in the enclosures. Since moving them to tubs, they seem to stay put even at night.

They are all still feeding just fine and husbandry is right where it was in the enclosures before winter hit and started messing with everything. They are acting the same as before with the exception of the 'night roaming'.

They seem to just 'sit' there more now than they did before.

So finally the questions comes in at:

Do you think that Racks or Tubs 'degrade' the quality of life of our animals over enclosures?

I know they really don't need the 'exercise' but do you think they get enough of it in a rack/tub?

Do you use racks/tubs just because you have a larger collection and it is more costly / space inefficient to use enclosures?

If you only had 6-12 animals, would you still use a rack? Assuming that most racks hold about 6-10 tubs from what I've seen.

I just interested in to what everyone's opinions are. I realize that BP's thrive just fine in racks/tubs and am not 'downing' the use of them by any means. I just want my animals to have the 'closest' to wild-life experience as possible.

[cinderbird]

Do you think that Racks or Tubs 'degrade' the quality of life of our animals over enclosures?

I know they really don't need the 'exercise' but do you think they get enough of it in a rack/tub?

Do you use racks/tubs just because you have a larger collection and it is more costly / space inefficient to use enclosures?

If you only had 6-12 animals, would you still use a rack? Assuming that most racks hold about 6-10 tubs from what I've seen.

What we have to keep in mind here, is that ball pythons in the wild live in termite mounds. Places more cramped, humid and hot than we provide even with racks. From what I understand, the activity from the termite mounds can actually create heat, it's pretty neat. That said, termite mounds are a super cramped way to live.

Also, they're reptiles. Snakes, and not very smart snakes at that. You look a ball python in the eye there isn't much going on back there, don't get me wrong i love bps and have had many in my collection and handled many more. You don't see the same kind of calculating that you see when you look at a retic or a big monitor lizard. They literally do not know what they are missing.

As far as exercise goes, if you're feeding properly, and not over feeding, there's no reason for extra exercise time. They're very sedentary animals. They'll roam a bit at night. The animals i kept in tanks and tubs have usually roamed at night.

6-12 animals: Racks. Hands down. Do you want to clean 6+ 20gals? I can barely lift a 20gal. The nice thing about tubs is the fact that they are light, easy to clean, easy to disinfect, and easy to replace. One snake? Maybe i'd do a display again, but racks are very good. The biggest problem with "display" type caging that i see, especially here, is the fact that the snakes don't feel secure enough and they just won't eat. That tells you a lot.

My two cents :3 I don't currently own any BPs but i miss them.

[purplemuffin]

Personally I prefer custom enclosures over racks and aquariums. I like to give my animals a little extra room and larger areas of thermal gradients. More areas for them to choose what temps they want to be at, and they will utilize that space if they are given adequate cover and appropriate hides IME. It's a lot more work for sure, but it's what I'd like. Right now my BP is in a tub, and since he moved into the tub from a large tank..well, I have mixed feelings. The tub is easier. He definitely feels secure. But he's also gotten more skittish. He is more prone to hiss and ball up than he used to be. The amount he is on and off feed makes no difference if he is in a large area with hides or a small tub, so the small space for sure didn't help us there. If it's live, he'll eat it, be he in a tub or a 55 gallon tank. If it's frozen, he'll struggle either way as well. When he was in the large tank he would roam--not that panicked "I must escape and find a place to hide" way of wandering, but at night he would travel to one end of the tank, hide amongst the fake plants and occasionally periscope out of the top of the 'bush' to check out what I was doing. Then he'd go into a hide and chill out, occasionally poking his face out with a searching tongue, checking to see if any prey had wandered by. It was very cool, very wild looking. Now he sits completely still in his tub. When a shadow goes over his face, he flinches and hisses. His muscle tone for sure doesn't seem as strong as before. He's healthy though.

I don't know. Part of me tries to tell myself 'no, the tub is perfect for him. He is just being a ball python', but I'm really starting to feel like it's just not working out for him. He was a wild caught adult, I don't know if that makes a difference. He just doesn't seem to be thriving. I've seen ball pythons thrive in tubs before. It just doesn't seem to be working out that way for maru.

I'll give my animal what he or she needs. Right now I feel like I will be building maru a nice large enclosure (not quite 55 gallon large, but bigger than the tub) that will be front opening and easy enough for me to clean. I have some plans I'm working out that should make it pretty quick and easy to do substrate changes and all, and I'm willing to do all that work involved.


I think most ball pythons do well in tubs. I think most ball pythons do poorly in aquarium set ups. I think there is nothing wrong with a custom enclosure if you are willing to do the work--They can only see out the front, and you can cover that with a blanket if they seem very stressed. It's easy to make it as sterile as a tub if need be, and you can put in as many hides as you want/your snake needs.


I dunno. Mixed feelings going on in my head right now. I only have one ball python. I do plan to have more. I also like being able to see my snakes when I walk in the room. I sort of would like my small group of pets/breeders to have a 'rack' of custom built enclosures, and I would have a regular rack to raise up the young babies until they are sold. I don't think it's necessary, but it's what I'd like to do.

[RichL]

I definitely agree that there isn't 'much going on' when you look into their eyes. I know they aren't as smart as some of the larger snakes or lizards, but I think they still 'like' some things over other things.

The tubs are definitely easier to deal with, I do not have racks but I imagine they are easier than tubs even. I would take a rack or tubs over aquariums, but the enclosures I plan to have open in the front.

Good feedback thus far, keep it coming. =)

[dart]

Depends on the breed of snake imo. My ball pythons seem to be happier in tubs once i switched from enclosures. Husbandry is easier to keep correct, in turn I'm sure that leads to a happier animal. They also seem to be less timid since they've been moved to a rack system. Some snakes I don't like to keep in tubs because they are very curious and very active such as my BCI's or Carpets. I feel like they enjoy the extra space. But every answer you're going to get is going to be different and it all comes down to personal preference. Personally, the first time I had to clean an entire 10 tub rack I made a decision to never turn back. I was able to clean out 10 tubs in the amount of time it takes to clean 1 enclosure. Since the snakes didn't seem to mind and it made my life easier I was all for it!

[RichL]

Oh yea, i know I will get different opinions. That's what it is all about =)

First time cleaning the tubs after swapping them, I was like " Wow, this is soo much easier!". Also with 7 snakes now, the amount of space that the tubs take up, compared to how much space 7 ~20gal+ enclosures would take up is a huge difference, especially in an apartment.

I have just noticed decreased activity at night and it got me to wondering if they actually 'enjoy' it less than being able to roam around and explore at night. I always kept larger than recommended enclosures. I would just keep an extra hide or two plus lots of 'extra' things to fill the gaps. Never had issues with feeding or aggression, still don't with the tubs either.

[Smoked Oyster]

I definitely agree that there isn't 'much going on' when you look into their eyes. I know they aren't as smart as some of the larger snakes or lizards, but I think they still 'like' some things over other things.

The tubs are definitely easier to deal with, I do not have racks but I imagine they are easier than tubs even. I would take a rack or tubs over aquariums, but the enclosures I plan to have open in the front.

Good feedback thus far, keep it coming. =)

I read a really good book on snakes called snakes the evolution of mystery in nature. Apparently, pythons and boas are considered "primitive snakes" and are significantly less intelligent than colubrids, and WAY less intelligent than elapids.

My 6yo girl pastel isnt too bright or active either. She's in a 20 long. When i take the lid off, she doesnt seem too interested in getting out. When i clean her tank i can just put her in a basket on the floor and she just chills out there, no lid. If i put her on the bed she definitely perks up and jams around, but she always seems pretty content to just hang out where i put her. At least i dont need to worry about her trying to break out!

[kitedemon]

I have a pair of tubs, two tanks (both side turned) 3 custom enclosures and a 5 slot rack. I believe that all make suitable homes. However the range of natural behaviour is reduced in tubs (+rack) does this effect health hard to say. There are studies being done (not on royals but parallels are being drawn) on the value of UV light on snakes (almost all snakes can be found out in the last hours of light in am and pm) the studies are not complete nor definitive but there is some question about the value of UV light cycles. There are also fewer options for heating tub type enclosures that other types tubs basically require some type of belly heat and an ambient source the most common ambient source is to heat the room. At 6 that IMO is not very efficient at 12 it becomes more so.

I find the tubs easy to clean the tanks and enclosures about the same and the rack the hardest by far. I am getting older now and have a not so great knee and laying on my back cleaning that snake contact surface of each shelf getting soap and water in my eyes is no fun at all.

I understand the termite comment but I do not believe this to be true. There is too many holes in the ground truth. The population density of mounds in some areas is far far lower than estimated snake populations so unless they live together it is unlikely. Add that they have been spotted actively hunting the idea they stay in a mound and wait for rodent to stumble in is not likely. If you say preferred nesting site I'd agree but live I simply have a hard time accepting this it is much more likely they 'take' over a rodent burrow (eating the former owner) and stay until hungry and leave to a new place.

I also understand the need for racks they are super space efficient and when in a heated room easy to maintain. For myself if space was not an issue at all I'd have stacking custom enclosures. If space were not part of the equation heating is much more efficient and they are not hard to maintain. Would the snake be happier? not likely just behave a bit differently would I be happier yes absolutely I'd rather walk in to see custom aluminum and pvc enclosures all stacked and really cool 'landscaping' done in each. Who wouldn't? The reason why most don't is they cannot afford them cannot spare the space or are not keeping pets but business animals where space and time = money.

The long term health of Royals in tubs is unknown they have not been kept in them long enough to know yet. Tanks and custom enclosures have been proven There are royals that have lived in this type on enclosure for 48 years. Tanks also have a long records 37+ years I know of (snake is still alive so...) Tubs I don't know but 16 for sure but older I cannot say. Will there be long lived snakes in tubs ? Likely.

It often comes down to practical matters on the part of the keeper and has not much to do with the snake. I think in the end the keeper makes the difference not the enclosure there are snakes suffering horrible conditions in tubs tanks and enclosures, at the hands of un caring in adept careless keepers. There are also snakes thriving in the same in all because of adept, skill full and caring keepers.

[RichL]

Thanks for the 'non' biased replies =) Exactly what I was looking for !

What I had considered, before right this post, was only having a fairly small collection. All of my animals are pets first and foremost. I do plan on breeding and some choices to reflect that. I do expect to ever do it more than on a hobby scale.

I was considering having all my 'pets' in enclosures. Any new hold-backs would also be in an enclosure. The hatchlings would be in a rack and QT would be tubs. So I was planning on using the full spectrum of housing.

I just really wanted to get some opinions, and that I have done. Thanks for the replies =)

[kitedemon]

That is close to what I have young in a rack and adults in enclosures there are a couple of acceptions my WC female does better in the rack and my old male also does better in the rack. I have a pair that don't seem to like the rack so it swings both ways.