I would really like to get a Gree Tree Python

[Brandon Osborne]

How many of you keep chondros and how many have you raised or bred?

[Brandon Osborne]

Without intentionally sounding like a jerk, I ask because I see so much "misleading" information on keeping chondros. I personally have been keeping chondros since 1995 and breeding them since 2000.

My first adults were kept in cages 30" wide X 16" deep X 48" tall for around 3-4 years. I produced my first two clutches in this setup. The adults picked their perch and pretty much stayed there. Very seldom do they stray from their "spot" unless temps are just out of control or they just want to ground. I offered elevated water as well as ground water and both were used. I used regular incandescent lights for heat....a standard soft white for day and a red for night heat. This setup worked as good as any I have ever used but goes against what "the books" say.

I now house my adults in 20" cubes with a strip of 3" heat tape between cages side by side. I have had this setup for about 7 years now. I have some rather large females, some in the 1800-2000 gram range and they are in great overall health. I just had two females ovulate in the last 3 weeks and one is going through a pre-lay at the moment.

One of the largest breeders of chondros and etb in the world, if not the largest, keeps his animals in GLASS cages with SCREEN tops and fronts. To top it off, he uses overhead lighting for heat. His cages are around 16" wide X 18" deep X 24" tall and he keeps, and breeds, some very large Amazon Basin Etbs in them. I have quarantined adult chondros in 10 gal aquariums for 2 year periods. These animals have shown no ill effects from doing so.




My point is, the books are a GREAT resource but chondros can't read. Most of the "requirements" we use are for us, not the animals themselves. In my opinion a 3'x2'x2' cage is way overkill. If you get a chance, read Dr. David Wilson's paper on chondros in the wild....the information he gathered over three years in the wild will surprise you beyond words.

Again, I'm not trying to sound like a know-it-all....just relaying my experience, as well as others that have done it for much longer than I have. Do what is best for your animals.

[Evenstar]

How many of you keep chondros and how many have you raised or bred?

That sounds like a question for a new thread.......

However, I have nothing to hide or be ashamed of. I don't breed chondros and I only have one and it is my first. However, I am the sort of person who very carefully and extensively researches any new interest with particular regard to my animals. I feel it is my responsibility to know as much as I can about a species before ownership so I can provide the best care possible. I have spoken with multiple well-respected breeders of chondros, I am a member of the morelia viridis forums, I have read "The More Complete Chondro" cover to cover several times (yes, several times; you should see the book - sticky notes and notes in the margins - it looks like one of my old college text books...), and, along with contiued education, as a result, I feel I have learned a great deal about these snakes. Do I know everything? Absolutely not, nor have I ever alluded that I do - experience certainly counts for something and I don't have much of that. But learning is a life-long process - and even breeders or keepers of decades with dozens of these snakes should always still be learning and attempt to keep an open mind.

The information I gave the OP in my first post can all be found in "The More Complete Chondro" alone:

"GTPs are small, as pythons go... The author has observed specimens over six feet in length and approaching 2000 grams in weight, but these are exceptional. The average adult male will be between four and five feet in length and will weigh 900-1200 grams..." (TMCC pg 11)

"...the smallest size I would recommend for the average adult is a cage 36" long, 24" high, and 18"-24" deep. Larger animals, especially mature females, should have a cage 36"-48" long, and I consider this an ideal size for most chondros. Conversely, a cage longer than 48" or higher than 24"-30" is excessive and can have disadvantages... Most importantly, it is nearly impossible to provide an adequate thermal gradient in a smaller cage." (TMCC pg 170-171)

"...chondros benefit from cages oriented on a horizontal plane rather than a vertical one. It has been my observation that most chondros will ignore a vertical thermal gradient and will select the perch that makes them feel most secure regardless of whether or not that location is within the ideal temperature range... A horizontal cage, wider than it is tall, is more practical and is better utilized by the animals than a tall narrow cage... [a perch] is located in the top third of the cage, and when a radient heat panel is installed at one end the animal has both a heat gradient and the highest perch in the cage!" (TMCC pg 171-172)

All of these quotes come directly out of "The More Complete Chondro" written by Greg Maxwell, owner, breeder, and keeper of exclusively chondros with over 30 years experience and one of the most highly respected authorities of GTPs in the world. All of this information has been confirmed by the 3-4 other highly respected breeders I've spoken with.

Any advice I ever give a person is thoroughly backed up by research with the animal's well-being in mind. This advice is given with the hope of getting the person in a position to experience the best chances for success. It is very possible for a "newbie" to offer legitimate, truthful, helpful, and effective advice. It is also possible for other newbies to recognize good advice and perfectly acceptable for them to agree with it. Just because they are new does not mean they can not have valid and helpful opinions. Your question, Brandon, might be more justified if I had offered inaccurate advice which I do realize can happen with a newbie if there is a lack of educated research, but the fact remains that I did not offer poor advice. I stand behind the advice I offered. It is, of course, up to the OP to accept it or look the other way. Either way, I would hope he will continue to do his own research on the subject.

I have respected your opinions on this forum, Brandon, so I sincerely hope you aren't being antagonistic. If I am misunderstanding you intentions, I am truly sorry. The "experts" of GTPs on this forum had not answered the op's questions yet so I took a shot. If there was any issue or question that I did not know the correct answer to, I would have stated that and also looked for the future advice from others with more hands-on experience.

Also, if you feel the advice given was inaccurate in any way, why don't you point out what you feel was incorrect? There is nothing wrong with disagreeing and offering another perspective.

[Evenstar]

And after seeing your following post, I see you have stated your alternate perspectives - thank you! And thanks for the pics!

Just for the record, I have no problem with glass enclosures. My snakes are all currently in tanks and they are all doing great! My issues were more with regard to size: the size tank standing on end that the OP first talked about is quite narrow and my concern was for the sideways thermal gradient. I only suggested the pvc cages as a matter of convenience - not that glass and screen was bad. It most certainly is not necessarily so.

No, chondros can't read, lol. But the advice given in that book is deamed from Greg's 30 years experience working with them. I still say my original advice was in no way "misleading". Sure, there are other ways of doing things and those ways are not necessarily wrong. But a recommended way is recommended by experts for a reason: it works and provides more convenience and ease of care which is helpful to a newbie.

Incidentally, I have read that paper by D. Wilson and it is a good read.

[Jessica Loesch]

I think it depends on the ambient environment, to be honest.

[Valentine Pirate]

I think it depends on the ambient environment, to be honest.

Definitely. It is similar to the discussions pertaining to open rack systems with an ambient acceptable temperature vs racks that are more of a closed style and don't necessarily need the room to be heated. Different species and caging system, but similar themes.

I'd say stick to guidelines that are given by reliable books and people with experience, then work out the tweaks that make it a good environment for your animals and you. Knowing the house I live in and what kinds of options I have with where my animals can be kept, I'd go with an enclosed PVC cage with heat panels and t-stat, but that's because I'm in a cold, dry climate in a poorly insulated house. No go for screen cages with me, everything is enclosed with strict temperature and humidity monitoring daily or even a couple times during the day

[Brandon Osborne]

Not trying to be antagonistic at all. I just want people to know there are many more ways to keep animals than what some "experts" write in books. I was not trying to say the information you gave was misleading, but that many are misled by one-sided opinions.

As far as I am aware, GM didn't start keeping chondros until the early to mid 90s and sold his collection several years ago when he recognized a decline in the market.....and having a couple of bad years of production didn't help. He gained most of his information from Rob Worrell, who kept most of his breeders in 10 gal aquariums, Eugene Bessette, who used 20 gal longs stood on end with screen fronts, and Trooper Walsh, who also used aquariums and switched to small tubs later on.

As I mentioned, books are a great resource but they are not the end all be all when it comes to correct information and keeping. I like GM and have been to his house a couple of times. My problem with some "experts" is they refuse to acknowledge some methods that are equally efficient or beneficial to the animals. In my personal opinion and experience a 48" cage is NOT an appropriate setup for any chondro. Heating and humidity are very tough to regulate unless, as mentioned above by VP, you have your entire ambient setting in check. My frustration comes from the opinion that everything but the book is wrong or improper.....as I have seen many times. If that were the case, many of the best and most experienced chondro keepers would be outcasts.

As always, do what is best for your animals and you can't go wrong.

[Jessica Loesch]

I personally will be getting a smaller PVC cage once mine grow up, in between what you use Brandon, and what the book suggests. I have seen many keepers mention it really isn't necessary to have all that space, if there is just enough.

[Brandon Osborne]

I personally will be getting a smaller PVC cage once mine grow up, in between what you use Brandon, and what the book suggests. I have seen many keepers mention it really isn't necessary to have all that space, if there is just enough.

Jessica, you are correct. Adults RARELY "thermoregulate". They find a particular spot they like and they stay there. There is really no need for more than one perch simply because they do not use them. A 24" cube is the largest I would use. I have one and don't even use it because I think they are too big....just my opinion. I do have a few 30 x 20 x 20 cages that I like, but any larger in height or depth would be too much for my animals' needs. They are now used for smaller Carpets. Chondros just don't use the space they are offered much less multiple perches.

[Evenstar]

Not trying to be antagonistic at all. I just want people to know there are many more ways to keep animals than what some "experts" write in books. I was not trying to say the information you gave was misleading, but that many are misled by one-sided opinions.

As far as I am aware, GM didn't start keeping chondros until the early to mid 90s and sold his collection several years ago when he recognized a decline in the market.....and having a couple of bad years of production didn't help. He gained most of his information from Rob Worrell, who kept most of his breeders in 10 gal aquariums, Eugene Bessette, who used 20 gal longs stood on end with screen fronts, and Trooper Walsh, who also used aquariums and switched to small tubs later on.

As I mentioned, books are a great resource but they are not the end all be all when it comes to correct information and keeping. I like GM and have been to his house a couple of times. My problem with some "experts" is they refuse to acknowledge some methods that are equally efficient or beneficial to the animals. In my personal opinion and experience a 48" cage is NOT an appropriate setup for any chondro. Heating and humidity are very tough to regulate unless, as mentioned above by VP, you have your entire ambient setting in check. My frustration comes from the opinion that everything but the book is wrong or improper.....as I have seen many times. If that were the case, many of the best and most experienced chondro keepers would be outcasts.

As always, do what is best for your animals and you can't go wrong.

After reading your 2nd post (the one with the pics - those were beautiful by the way) I totally see you weren't being antagonistic - I started typing my response before I saw that and I didn't think you were that type of person anyhow, lol.

I certainly don't think everything in GM's book should be taken as gospel. We all have to use common sense and appropriate judgment to determine what's best for our individual animals. For instance, I also think a 48" cage is too large even for a large female. That's why I do so much research.

I am using a 3x2x2 pvc cage for "Hunter" my 8yr old GTP. But I made this decision because the breeder, Rocky Gravley, told me that's what Hunter had always been in and he seems to use his space. Hunter is also an exceptionally large male at over 5ft. My home is also cool so while the glass tanks work ok for my ball and my boas, I didn't want to chance it with Hunter. I love the cage and so does he!

I still think a 45gal tank set on end is a bit narrow for an adult GTP. A 45gal long tank measures 48 x 12 1/2 x 18 inches. 12 1/2 inches wide just does not seem wide enough, especially for an adult. I think 18-20" should be the minimum. I'm not being argumentative, this is just my opinion.